Yixing

[steanze]

As someone who is not familiar with Japanese teaware, can I ask if people have the same desire to pursue particular vintages of particular Japanese clays, like they do with particular vintages of particular Yixing clays?

I haven't yet seen the same obsession over rare or 'high quality' clays in people who buy Japanese teaware as I have with those of us who are trying to chase the Yixing dragon.

I also haven't seen the same obsession over the effect that certain Japanese clays have on a tea's flavour than with Yixing clays, and even then, I think that pursuing the effect on tea flavour (as opposed to pursuing rare or interesting clays) seems to be more of a Western thing than an Eastern thing (from what little I can see online).

Perhaps the fact that Yixing was controlled by a single state factory for so many years, with so many subtle and not-so-subtle variations over time, makes Yixing factory teapots better-suited to collecting, and, inevitably, forgeries (especially if the forger only needs to make a teapot in the exact same shape and style, rather than imitating something that is obviously more hand-made like with some Japanese wares). I can imagine that someone could sell catalogues of every single factory pot ever made, and collectors could go on adventures to catch 'em all, so to say.

And on that point of forgery, I often wonder what percentage of Yixing vendors (especially those visible in the online world) know that their teapot is fake, versus what percentage are unaware of that because they themselves have been deceived.

Andrew

In Japanese teaware it's mostly about the art, not so much about clay quality. But that is also the case about higher-end Yixing collection: at that level craftsmanship and representativeness of a historical period are more important than the material. Similarly good zini could cost $300 or $10000 depending on who made the pot and when.

I don't think the monopoly of Factory 1 makes Yixing more collectible. In fact, most of the higher-end Yixing collecting does not involve F1 pots. Most collectors look for works from ROC and earlier, some collectors are after the works of famous craftsmen. F1 pots are nice because they are good tools (nice clay, functional craftsmanship) and they are cheap enough. Even people who collect F1 pots rarely try to get them all, if anything because in the 80s and 90s there are many not-so-good ones.

[steanze]

On a somewhat unrelated note, I find that often conversations about clay rarity are a bit misleading, because they often focus on the ore category rather than on the specific batch of clay. For example, during Qing and ROC, zini tends to be more common than zhuni, but there are some specific exceptional batches of zini that are quite rare. If one classifies them as "zini", one might think they are a relatively common clay, but they aren't really...

[Andrew S]

Are there many books out there about Qing and ROC pots and clay?

Or is this something that one has to learn through experience and connections?

Andrew

[steanze]

Are there many books out there about Qing and ROC pots and clay?

Or is this something that one has to learn through experience and connections?

Andrew

There are books, mostly in Chinese. In English, K.S. Lo's "The Stonewares of Yixing" is a good start, but it isn't the easiest to find.

[Mark-S]

There are books, mostly in Chinese. In English, K.S. Lo's "The Stonewares of Yixing" is a good start, but it isn't the easiest to find.

The price for this book is always about $300 or more...

[steanze]

The price for this book is always about $300 or more...

I know... check if they have it in the library or if there is an interlibrary loan available

[LeoFox]

What are the critical attributes that make a pot yixing. And in critical, I mean, without X attribute, then pot cannot be called yixing.

Is it the source of the clay?

Is it the method in which the pot is made?

Is it the location and history of the workshop/artist?


In other words, can these be yixing? -

Slab built pot with non yixing clay by yixing artist?

Wheel thrown pot with yixing clay by non yixing artist?

Slab built pot with yixing clay by non yixing artist and workshop in Beijing?

Wheel thrown pot with yixing clay by yixing artist in yixing?

[Andrew S]

Since Yixing pots are valued and famous for their clay (and the fact that it is unglazed, that it interacts with tea, and that it develops a patina), I would hazard a guess and say that the characteristic which makes a pot a "Yixing" pot is the unglazed Yixing clay.

So even if other clays (such as Chaozhou, Shantou) meet aspects of that description as well, it is the specific location of each clay that makes each type of teapot distinct and unique.

I wouldn't have a problem as such with someone taking clay from Yixing and making it elsewhere in the unglazed Yixing style, so long as they say disclose that that is what has happened (perhaps drawing a very rough analogy with, say, Champagne wine and Champagne-style wine).

A problem might be whether there is any clear definition, sharp line, or simple method of differentiation between Yixing and non-Yixing clay, especially if traditional mines are depleted, closed or expensive, and new locations are being used nearby.

But the fact that it might be difficult to decide what is, and what is not, a Yixing clay at the periphery doesn't invalidate the distinction between Yixing clay and non-Yixing clay in my view.

Andrew

[LeoFox]

Since Yixing pots are valued and famous for their clay (and the fact that it is unglazed, that it interacts with tea, and that it develops a patina), I would hazard a guess and say that the characteristic which makes a pot a "Yixing" pot is the unglazed Yixing clay.

So even if other clays (such as Chaozhou, Shantou) meet aspects of that description as well, it is the specific location of each clay that makes each type of teapot distinct and unique.

I wouldn't have a problem as such with someone taking clay from Yixing and making it elsewhere in the unglazed Yixing style, so long as they say disclose that that is what has happened (perhaps drawing a very rough analogy with, say, Champagne wine and Champagne-style wine).

A problem might be whether there is any clear definition, sharp line, or simple method of differentiation between Yixing and non-Yixing clay, especially if traditional mines are depleted, closed or expensive, and new locations are being used nearby.

But the fact that it might be difficult to decide what is, and what is not, a Yixing clay at the periphery doesn't invalidate the distinction between Yixing clay and non-Yixing clay in my view.

Andrew

I think some have taken yixing clay and made pots elsewhere, including petr Novak.

[Bok]

I think some have taken yixing clay and made pots elsewhere, including petr Novak.

Yes, but he used wheel throwing instead of slab-building.

To me Yixing teapot is a slab-built teapot made of Yixing clay.

Which in consequence is mostly made by an Yixing local as I dare to say that they rarely would give it away to outsiders. It has happened though, there are Taiwanese potters who used Yixing clay and Petr, but it is the exception rather than the rule.

[Andrew S]

@LeoFox: thank you, I was not aware, or had forgotten.

A quick search reveals some of the results of that interesting experiment:

http://potsandtea.blogspot.com/2012/06/ ... t-two.html

http://www.marshaln.com/2012/09/an-international-pot/

http://natureandtea.blogspot.com/2012/0 ... ixing.html

It'd be interesting to learn how the tea made with those pots tasted, and how those pots have developed over time.

Andrew

[steanze]

What are the critical attributes that make a pot yixing. And in critical, I mean, without X attribute, then pot cannot be called yixing.

Is it the source of the clay?

Is it the method in which the pot is made?

Is it the location and history of the workshop/artist?


In other words, can these be yixing? -

Slab built pot with non yixing clay by yixing artist?

Wheel thrown pot with yixing clay by non yixing artist?

Slab built pot with yixing clay by non yixing artist and workshop in Beijing?

Wheel thrown pot with yixing clay by yixing artist in yixing?

The view of concepts as definitions was popular in the 17-18th centuries, but the idea that there are necessary and sufficient conditions to define concepts has been criticized by Wittgenstein and others, and the search for definitions is now typically considered as a hopeless task (i.e. see this https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/concepts).

For instance, what about a pot made with clay mined from another planet that happens to have the exact chemical composition as Yixing clay, made by an artisan born in Yixing and raised there inside a room that simulates the climate in Dubai (and s/he never left that room), with a virtual window showing the view from a window in Dubai? You can create arbitrarily complicated scenarios. Whatever definition you come up with there will be problems with it.

[steanze]

Yes, but he used wheel throwing instead of slab-building.

To me Yixing teapot is a slab-built teapot made of Yixing clay.

Which in consequence is mostly made by an Yixing local as I dare to say that they rarely would give it away to outsiders. It has happened though, there are Taiwanese potters who used Yixing clay and Petr, but it is the exception rather than the rule.

So the late 50s slip cast hongni biandeng is not a Yixing pot?

[Bok]

LeoFox: thank you, I was not aware, or had forgotten.

A quick search reveals some of the results of that interesting experiment:

http://potsandtea.blogspot.com/2012/06/ ... t-two.html

http://www.marshaln.com/2012/09/an-international-pot/

http://natureandtea.blogspot.com/2012/0 ... ixing.html

It'd be interesting to learn how the tea made with those pots tasted, and how those pots have developed over time.

Andrew

One I know who got one, sold it a while afterwards, so...

[Bok]

So the late 50s slip cast hongni biandeng is not a Yixing pot?

Ha, excellent point!