And it would go unsold till 2030.
Yixing
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Chadrinkincat
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That’s the issue of yixing market : high price, and debatable origin. No surprise westerners are not really into it seriously. Japanese ceramic is all over Europe, specifically France, while yixing is virtually unexisting.
I hope the moody guy didn’t pay too much for that one...
I hope the moody guy didn’t pay too much for that one...
I also do not think that someone will buy this pot, but for Germany it's not necessarily true that there are more Japanese ceramics on the market. There is much vintage Japanese porcelain though.
In addition, I find it much harder to determine the origin of Japanese teaware in comparison to vintage Yixing teapots. But for some reason, most customers only care about the origin of Yixing teapots that much... not Japanese ones. Maybe this is the case because there are more fake (trashy) Yixing teapots... I don't know...
I wondered the same... my theory is that it is because Japanese pottery sees very little increase in value, except for a couple of famous names. You can be almost sure to not even break even, if you ever decide to sell one. People also seem less worried about fakes or toxins in the clay when it comes to Japanese ware.
With China, there is always the slightly racist connotation that it has to be fake and/or poisonous, unless proven otherwise...
You are making a big statement Bok by assuming a racist connotation. The market fact is simply that quite often Yixing pots are sold for what they are not. As a buyer you take that risk, but it's very uncomfortable. For some reason, 70s pots seems to be prone to that gambling more than earlier ones.
With Japanese ceramics, if you want a Jozan, the price is known and the place where to buy is either a shop or a gallery, and there are plenty fully official, same thing for any kind of Japanese piece and documentation is ample. For Yixing, refer to the thread regarding vendors : very few and some are being debated. Documentation : I only know Chilin Lu book, some general Chinese teapot ones, and couple of blogs... very thin. As far as I see it there is a big difference of market structure : supply/demand, information, transparency, operators.
With Japanese ceramics, if you want a Jozan, the price is known and the place where to buy is either a shop or a gallery, and there are plenty fully official, same thing for any kind of Japanese piece and documentation is ample. For Yixing, refer to the thread regarding vendors : very few and some are being debated. Documentation : I only know Chilin Lu book, some general Chinese teapot ones, and couple of blogs... very thin. As far as I see it there is a big difference of market structure : supply/demand, information, transparency, operators.
I think it’s pretty fair to say that Chinese things in general are more quickly being suspected of some sort of misbehaving, bei it msg in food, pesticides in tea or counterfeit products - some of it deservedly so, but still the prejudices are there. I don’t think many are questioning the additives in the food if a Japanese restaurant the same way…
Comparing Jozan is not the same, quite recent for one and the interest and returns not large enough to warrant fakery, his spontaneous style is also much more difficult to fake than the perfectionist Yixing wares.
Comparing Jozan is not the same, quite recent for one and the interest and returns not large enough to warrant fakery, his spontaneous style is also much more difficult to fake than the perfectionist Yixing wares.
We can also name Kojheiji Miura, Mineo Okabe, etc...
My point is only to compare neighbouring markets where in Japan you have a very organized market with official galleries, brick and mortar specialised shops, registered businesses, and most online is stemming from these. If any suspicion is linked to Chinese ware, my assumption is that it is due to the kind of "underground" market for this stuff, very funky pricing (you said it yourself : HK, Spore, Taiwan, Europe have a different price tag for the same item... buyers are misinformed but not that stupid), and the reality of fakery. And as far as prices are related to that, an early 70s pots is about 600$, and GL 250$ at ZAG (highest price tag !) that's not that high price which could justify tons of sh.. fake goods.
To my understanding and I heard it many times, Green Label are all over Taiwan and for cheap $, and other stuff too (60s, early 70s, etc...), and it is also likely that the existing stock of F1 pots are in hundreds of thousands accross Asia (very, very conservative here). So quite naively I don't understand why the yixing pot market is not fluid and transparent, at least to westerners.
PS : I agree there's suspicion when talking about Chinese things, but I think that's not really the point.
My point is only to compare neighbouring markets where in Japan you have a very organized market with official galleries, brick and mortar specialised shops, registered businesses, and most online is stemming from these. If any suspicion is linked to Chinese ware, my assumption is that it is due to the kind of "underground" market for this stuff, very funky pricing (you said it yourself : HK, Spore, Taiwan, Europe have a different price tag for the same item... buyers are misinformed but not that stupid), and the reality of fakery. And as far as prices are related to that, an early 70s pots is about 600$, and GL 250$ at ZAG (highest price tag !) that's not that high price which could justify tons of sh.. fake goods.
To my understanding and I heard it many times, Green Label are all over Taiwan and for cheap $, and other stuff too (60s, early 70s, etc...), and it is also likely that the existing stock of F1 pots are in hundreds of thousands accross Asia (very, very conservative here). So quite naively I don't understand why the yixing pot market is not fluid and transparent, at least to westerners.
PS : I agree there's suspicion when talking about Chinese things, but I think that's not really the point.
@olivierd I agree with all the above.
I think the difference in prices is explainable by the price of sourcing the item. Some items are more prevalent in one country than the other. So if item A is rare wherever I am, the price for it will be higher. Different things have been exported to different markets, some also on demand, which explains the disparity in availability even within the same region.
The selection factors for which pot is regarded higher can also differ. For example, Biaozhun(standard) factory one is possible more sought after in Taiwan than it is in Malaysia. More sought after, more competitive, higher prices.
Some regions prefer more bling, some less. It all depends. And a place like HK is expensive in general. Many very rich collectors, so that drives up the price as well.
In the West on the other end, there is no pool of old Yixing worth mentioning to fall back on (porcelain looks much better in that regard), it’s a few odd ones out but drops in the ocean in comparison. So everything comes in relatively recently from markets which have already become high locally. Ergo…
It’s just more diverse and layered than Japanese teaware ~ Insolently, I might add, similar to Japanese tea which is also more one dimensional hahaha
I think the difference in prices is explainable by the price of sourcing the item. Some items are more prevalent in one country than the other. So if item A is rare wherever I am, the price for it will be higher. Different things have been exported to different markets, some also on demand, which explains the disparity in availability even within the same region.
The selection factors for which pot is regarded higher can also differ. For example, Biaozhun(standard) factory one is possible more sought after in Taiwan than it is in Malaysia. More sought after, more competitive, higher prices.
Some regions prefer more bling, some less. It all depends. And a place like HK is expensive in general. Many very rich collectors, so that drives up the price as well.
In the West on the other end, there is no pool of old Yixing worth mentioning to fall back on (porcelain looks much better in that regard), it’s a few odd ones out but drops in the ocean in comparison. So everything comes in relatively recently from markets which have already become high locally. Ergo…
It’s just more diverse and layered than Japanese teaware ~ Insolently, I might add, similar to Japanese tea which is also more one dimensional hahaha
That's true, when it comes to Japanese pottery, I don't think that much about adulterated clay. But I am concerned about radioactive materials (from Fukushima or WW2). And sometimes I wonder if the glaze could leak into my tea. However, I guess that this is irrational...Bok wrote: ↑Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:05 amI think it’s pretty fair to say that Chinese things in general are more quickly being suspected of some sort of misbehaving, bei it msg in food, pesticides in tea or counterfeit products - some of it deservedly so, but still the prejudices are there. I don’t think many are questioning the additives in the food if a Japanese restaurant the same way…
Bad fake pots are cheap to produce and even good fakes are not that expensive. Especially the very simple shapes. So when the production of a fake pot costs you between... maybe $1 and $100, why wouldn't you do it?
I think this is related to the business culture. One reason I say this is that there are many people in China who take a cynical view in regards to Yixing. For example, the clay-doping scandal from several years back. English-language Yixing fans will mention it in passing, but it started as a China-only issue, after CCTV broadcast a show on the Midea brand "zisha" cooking pots and anxieties over cobalt-oxide.
I don't think this business culture is unique to China, it just has environmental conditions that encourage it. A lot of Yixing potters probably would not have made counterfeits if they had kept their stable jobs at State-run factories, but once they were on their own, well, they needed the money. Once the counterfeits are made, they attract salesmen tempted by the high margins. I don't know why, but the Chinese legal system appears to struggle to effectively punish counterfeiters and the fraudsters who capitalize on counterfeits.
The average American's opinion of American used-car salesmen and telemarketers, for example, is just as low -- they are assumed to be hustlers until proven otherwise. (Sometimes these practices are even cemented in film, like the boiler-room tactics in the film Glengarry Glen Ross.)
Just a couple of quick thoughts on this interesting conversation:
- I do notice that there is a tendency to question Chinese wares more than Japanese ones. There is a fair amount of Raku lead glazes and of lead in ginbins, but for some reason it tends to be talked about less. Perhaps part of the reason is that in the west ginbins and raku are relatively less widespread than tokoname and hagi.
- There is a larger amount of Yixing forgeries than Japanese forgeries. I suspect that has to do with cost of production, at the moment it is probably cheaper to produce forgeries in China than in Japan. i don't think it has something to do intrinsically with the differences between Yixing and Japanese wares or differences in business culture. When the prices are high enough, there are a good amount of fakes of Japanese wares too.
- Regarding the increase in value, I suspect that much of the difference between Chinese and Japanese wares is tied to differences in inflation and expansion of a middle class in China that can aim to collect these types of items. I suspect that whether this trend will continue in the future will depend on the inflation rate and expansion of upper-middle class in China.
- Regarding the variety of markets, I would agree that the differences in pricing and availability across regions are much greater for Yixing than for Japanese wares. However, this does not mean that Japanese wares are overall more "uniform". By contrast, in terms of aesthetics, there are enormous differences between different traditions (i.e. tokoname vs hagi vs bizen vs oribe vs shino vs minggei...) as well as very interesting contemporary directions. In terms of styles and approaches to aesthetics, I find Japanese wares to be exceptionally varied.
- I do notice that there is a tendency to question Chinese wares more than Japanese ones. There is a fair amount of Raku lead glazes and of lead in ginbins, but for some reason it tends to be talked about less. Perhaps part of the reason is that in the west ginbins and raku are relatively less widespread than tokoname and hagi.
- There is a larger amount of Yixing forgeries than Japanese forgeries. I suspect that has to do with cost of production, at the moment it is probably cheaper to produce forgeries in China than in Japan. i don't think it has something to do intrinsically with the differences between Yixing and Japanese wares or differences in business culture. When the prices are high enough, there are a good amount of fakes of Japanese wares too.
- Regarding the increase in value, I suspect that much of the difference between Chinese and Japanese wares is tied to differences in inflation and expansion of a middle class in China that can aim to collect these types of items. I suspect that whether this trend will continue in the future will depend on the inflation rate and expansion of upper-middle class in China.
- Regarding the variety of markets, I would agree that the differences in pricing and availability across regions are much greater for Yixing than for Japanese wares. However, this does not mean that Japanese wares are overall more "uniform". By contrast, in terms of aesthetics, there are enormous differences between different traditions (i.e. tokoname vs hagi vs bizen vs oribe vs shino vs minggei...) as well as very interesting contemporary directions. In terms of styles and approaches to aesthetics, I find Japanese wares to be exceptionally varied.
As someone who is not familiar with Japanese teaware, can I ask if people have the same desire to pursue particular vintages of particular Japanese clays, like they do with particular vintages of particular Yixing clays?
I haven't yet seen the same obsession over rare or 'high quality' clays in people who buy Japanese teaware as I have with those of us who are trying to chase the Yixing dragon.
I also haven't seen the same obsession over the effect that certain Japanese clays have on a tea's flavour than with Yixing clays, and even then, I think that pursuing the effect on tea flavour (as opposed to pursuing rare or interesting clays) seems to be more of a Western thing than an Eastern thing (from what little I can see online).
Perhaps the fact that Yixing was controlled by a single state factory for so many years, with so many subtle and not-so-subtle variations over time, makes Yixing factory teapots better-suited to collecting, and, inevitably, forgeries (especially if the forger only needs to make a teapot in the exact same shape and style, rather than imitating something that is obviously more hand-made like with some Japanese wares). I can imagine that someone could sell catalogues of every single factory pot ever made, and collectors could go on adventures to catch 'em all, so to say.
And on that point of forgery, I often wonder what percentage of Yixing vendors (especially those visible in the online world) know that their teapot is fake, versus what percentage are unaware of that because they themselves have been deceived.
Andrew
I haven't yet seen the same obsession over rare or 'high quality' clays in people who buy Japanese teaware as I have with those of us who are trying to chase the Yixing dragon.
I also haven't seen the same obsession over the effect that certain Japanese clays have on a tea's flavour than with Yixing clays, and even then, I think that pursuing the effect on tea flavour (as opposed to pursuing rare or interesting clays) seems to be more of a Western thing than an Eastern thing (from what little I can see online).
Perhaps the fact that Yixing was controlled by a single state factory for so many years, with so many subtle and not-so-subtle variations over time, makes Yixing factory teapots better-suited to collecting, and, inevitably, forgeries (especially if the forger only needs to make a teapot in the exact same shape and style, rather than imitating something that is obviously more hand-made like with some Japanese wares). I can imagine that someone could sell catalogues of every single factory pot ever made, and collectors could go on adventures to catch 'em all, so to say.
And on that point of forgery, I often wonder what percentage of Yixing vendors (especially those visible in the online world) know that their teapot is fake, versus what percentage are unaware of that because they themselves have been deceived.
Andrew
Yeah, from what I've read online this seems to be true. The focus seems to be more on the design / craftsmanship / maker / age and rarity (of the clay). In my opinion, the tea flavor is a matter of taste anyway. There are so many opposing views when it comes to clay (especially Duanni), the "right" choice of water, brewing time, amount of tea leaves, etc.