Tea Paranoia ?

[aet]

I'm just wondering. I know there is a competition between vendors so it makes sense to not share certain info , but I'm kinda observing same scenario among the tea buyers.
Like many times somebody has posted something ( tea ) and talking about it highly. Then I ask , where did you buy it? ...silent
On Reddit somebody recommended buying from Kunming Taobao vendors , I asked which vendor. Got an answer, you are from Kunming so your question is not genuine I explained that as a vendor I find informative what people out there ( foreigners tend to buy , drink ( tea ) ) , so my question is genuine and mean no harm. ...silent
Other day on FB group somebody was talking highly about Zijuan shu. I'm interested in that matter since we have a farmer with Zi Juan plantations.
Again, I asked where did he bought his dozens of cakes ( as he claimed ) or at least share the labels , so I can try as he had recommended - I must to try ....silent
And I could go on and go on.

Is there some paranoia among the tea buyers? Why not sharing such a information? Common , the market is huge , tons of tea ..especially puer tea and it is going to be like that for the next decade.
So what is the fuss about?
Please share your thoughts.
Thanks!

[Bok]

Is there some paranoia among the tea buyers? Why not sharing such a information? Common , the market is huge , tons of tea ..especially puer tea and it is going to be like that for the next decade.
So what is the fuss about?
Please share your thoughts.
Thanks!

I can only guess. Maybe those people are not really aware of the scale of Puerh prodution and how much quantity is really available, thus fearing their favourite source may run out of it?

Finding a good Puerh that one likes among all the tons of available cakes can seem like a very tricky venture, so if one finally finds one among all the rubbish, they might feel the need to hold onto the "secret?" If they feel like it was a real hidden gem and they put in ots of effort and tutition cakes to find I might at the limit understand hesitancy to share the source. There are a lot of information-free-riders out there who feel entitled to all the information without putting any work into research themselves(this concerns all sorts of topics) – also not saying that you are one of these, as I am well aware that you are not

[aet]

"
Finding a good Puerh that one likes among all the tons of available cakes can seem like a very tricky venture, so if one finally finds one among all the rubbish, they might feel the need to hold onto the "secret?" If they feel like it was a real hidden gem and they put in ots of effort and tutition cakes to find I might at the limit understand hesitancy to share the source. "

yep , that makes a sense and I understand it. I'm probably too naive in idea that sharing can improve the market. Like I could provide good shu zi juan made from the source ( means sourced from plantation and fermented in private batch ) if understand the taste preference of those shudrinkers. Of course not relaying on only one person giving some feedback. But just as an example.

"There are a lot of information-free-riders out there who feel entitled to all the information without putting any work into research themselves(this concerns all sorts of topics) " ...agree , especially some beginners , which might lead to some disinformation ( same as exaggerated marketing ...like LBZ old trees for 20$ cake )

"– also not saying that you are one of these, as I am well aware that you are not " ..thanks I have to admit , that I'm also still in learning process as the market it self is dynamic, so sometimes I do have to make some correction in my blog when I update my knowledge.
I'm kinda in opinion " you can't learn if you are afraid to speak " ...I know that mostly applies with learning languages , but by sharing some info which might not be 100% correct might lead to the correction after somebody points out the mistake on that particular written topic. I mean at least that's the way scientist work when share their work on their platforms.
But in tea business...because it's a business , the knowledge is the "know how" , so not much sharing goes among the vendors ( mostly just " our tea is beautiful , please do buy more " , how to brew this or that ) . I do not care and share anyway. But from buyers side it feels bit too paranoia...I don't know, probably just my think

[Bok]

because it's a business , the knowledge is the "know how" , so not much sharing goes among the vendors ( mostly just " our tea is beautiful , please do buy more " , how to brew this or that ) . I do not care and share anyway.

Yeah, I think you might be one the very few to share this openly... most other vendors would not dare to share like this, even less with people they might have never met in real life.

Which is another valid point I think, personally, I am much more willing to share certain things with people I know and respect, than just everyone across the bank in ignorance of their motivations. A shame for general knowledge levels, but I feel anyone who is really wanting to know(anything) will eventually succeed with perseverance and time.

[Bok]

Speaking of – I highly recommend @everyone to read up on @aet's blog, lots of interesting information other vendors would share only over their dead bodies

[Ethan Kurland]

.... There are a lot of information-free-riders out there who feel entitled to all the information without putting any work into research themselves...

+1
Not so much lately, but there have been several new members that were really visitors that had many people doing a lot of work for them. Even as weeks went by with the visitors being told how to search here & elsewhere, given advice, etc. members did all of the work for them. No problem, except some of these visitors immediately gave signals that somehow they were destructive; & indeed they did some insulting & worse before disappearing from here.

I mention this little odd history because this forum is so good yet odd things can happen. One that used to trouble me when I needed to find good teas & good vendors, is I read rave reviews for a tea then learned that those who praised that tea, did not like it enough to buy a quantity larger than a tiny sample. Reading at some point in time "I might get another sample of that now that I remember how much I like it...." or something like that used to annoy me. (When I became a vendor, I knew that selling samples would be detrimental to my happiness.)

I am leading up to my answer about tea paranoia. Who knows how or why people behave as we do? Even sane people have crazy moments; good people can behave badly. Moreover, as someone who does not buy nor sell pu, from the outside, I see pu business as commercial war (all is fair etc.). With all of the deception (the first casualty of war is truth), hype, market manipulation etc., I'm not surprised some people don't want to reveal that they are the duped or the dupers; nor want to reveal the good sources or teas to people who have not been in the trenches with them.

[Bok]

Maybe Clausewitz has the answers...

[Baisao]

Maybe Clausewitz has the answers...

Ha!

[Balthazar]

@aet: Interesting discussion. You might find this blogpost and the discussion it sparked relevant.

I think the point raised by Bok regarding scarcity is the most important factor for aged puer. I haven't seen any uneasiness about being open about sources for younger puer. Not that I've asked people about where they are buying such teas (I'm not in the market for them).

Another factor if the source of the tea is not a big vendor (e.g. a small shop owner or a private collector) is that you might not want to burden them with an influx of inquiries from prospective buyers that do not know the proper etiquette. This sounds snobbish, but there's definitely different "tea shopping cultures" out there. Particularly if the source of the tea does not speak English. In which case you yourself might also end up as a sort of pro bono shopping agent for others, which some people might not want to (or have the time to) be.

(Just to be clear, I personally don't mind people asking me and omission of mentioning the source of a tea in one of my posts should not be taken as a sign that it's something I want to keep secret.)

Maybe Clausewitz has the answers...

I'll suggest Carl Schmitt's friend-enemy distinction (or perhaps a modified and less antagonist friend-stranger distinction) as a supplement.

[Andrew S]

This is an interesting topic, and a useful discussion; thank you @aet.

Apart from agreeing generally with what everyone else has said, I wonder if there is something specific to puer which makes this kind of 'secrecy' more common than with other teas.

If I like a particular yancha or a high mountain tea from a particular producer or vendor, but it runs out, then there's always next season, and while I might be a bit disappointed, I can easily get a similar style of tea from someone else which feels like a decent substitute.

But if I want a cake from a specific year, specific producer, specific region, that was stored in a specific way, then it might be difficult for me to treat anything other than that exact same tea as a worthy substitute. And that would be especially so in the 'Western internet world'.

Aged tea might have different factors at play, but I assume that we're talking mostly about young and even fresh puer.

Andrew

[Ethan Kurland]

I should not post. In doing so, I am doing what some rude visitors have done that sometimes bothered me, writing before doing my homework (going to the library to read Clausewitz & Schmidt). Nonetheless:

Andrew S., if you want help making choices about buying young or fresh pu-erh, in my ignorant opinion, it is like asking someone to cross a minefield with you because he has a slightly useful metal detector. More simply put, who knows how tea that is not ready for use now will prepare tea in the future? I cannot understand how one could advise anyone about pu that needs years of aging.

However, I imagine myself with Bok & Baiso in a teahouse, tea drunk on pu. listening to them enlighten lazy me on some philosophers & totally comprehending for the moment

[Bok]

@Ethan Kurland count me in! Although Clausewitz was more of a war strategist, rather than a pure philosopher, kind of the Sunzi of the Western Hemisphere. Anyways… I’m sure we wouldn’t need any philosopher to aid us…

[Bok]

Btw @aet thanks! This has turned out to be the most interesting thread we’ve had in a while!

[aet]

I might include / combine 2 questions ( topics ) above. Not sure If I understood correctly , so might be steering the conversation away. If I do so , forgive me ;_)

There are some features which make some particular puer special and those might be the secret of the producer. The taste, which is difficult to imitate and hard to predict with storage. Yet, it is doable.

Years ago I've tried around 5 years aged Mang Fei sheng , and it hit my sweet spot. It was quite expensive so I was trying to find a replacement from other producer. Tried many MF shengs of various years and producers in our local tea markets, but something was still missing in taste I new from the first one.
Few years later I even decided to go to Mangfei and source maocha directly , yet , even there was not the same taste.
At that stage I new it was blended.
Lucky enough , visited some tea shop in Yongde ( town near to Mang Fei village ) and I tried some maocha from other villages , and there we go, missing piece of the puzzle.

Estimate ageing :
For example , there is a significant difference between Menghai and Lincang shengs ( hope orthodox puerists agree with me ) , and that might be not much vivid as the fresh / new sheng ,but after few years of aging certain proprieties of each region will disclose it's origin. Especially if you get lucky enough and try same tea now and few years later ( form both regions ).

So if you had tried , lets say 5 years stored sheng ( same storage ) Lincang and Menghai ( few different pieces of each , so you get an extended experience ) , you might get some idea about those differences I'm talking about. The best / most vivid difference was when we compared Lincang 2001 with Menghai 2003 ( coz 01 wasn't available, but those couple of years not significant in 20y ageing ) . We brew it side by side , very educational.
From that kind of experience you may start to make a decision which new sheng ( area ) you are going to buy and age.

In my experience , it is possible to make more accurate ageing estimation , but few conditions are required:

1) you need to know your source ( the tea comes from the same place, preferably same garden )
2) you need to understand the processing in / from taste ( like distinguish if tea has gone trough high temp kill green / long time wither. / long time drying ..rainy days for example, ..etc. ) , so you need to know very well it is "original" taste ( when processed without any those mentioned tweaks or flaws )
3) you need to know your storage ( how tea is changing in 1/2/3 years or so )

I've done some press 3 years ago and when drink it now , I know that next year want the tea from the same garden because I'm happy with the taste transformation so far and can estimate the curve on which it's going to follow next years. ( of course main issue is the changing / raising prices )
I'm talking about Kunming storage , In Guangzhou I'd be lost , same as I'm when customer from US or EU ask me : " how this tea will age? " ....have no idea because do not know your storage and some provided numbers of temp. with humidity over the year will not help me much either.

This approach of course depends on each individual vendor's concept. Some shops who have "puer pop" ( puer gigs ) audience which is looking for each season new village, new mountain etc. , the ageing is not that important ( and therefore no need to bother with all those above ) because tea is sold and drunk new more than aged. This kind of concept requires more marketing , better ( more attractive ) wrappers and some YouTube videos to attract more puer-hype influenced audience, rather than experienced puer drinkers who focus on completely different things.

Again, I apologize if I misunderstood the contributions / questions from the posters above and talking off the line now ;-D

[wave_code]

Another factor if the source of the tea is not a big vendor (e.g. a small shop owner or a private collector) is that you might not want to burden them with an influx of inquiries from prospective buyers that do not know the proper etiquette. This sounds snobbish, but there's definitely different "tea shopping cultures" out there. Particularly if the source of the tea does not speak English. In which case you yourself might also end up as a sort of pro bono shopping agent for others, which some people might not want to (or have the time to) be.

I can see for western enthusiasts, particularly those of us who might be more experienced, this makes sense in a lot of situations and maybe not answering seems less rude than "I can't tell you" or "You can't get it anyway" when certain teas we get might come through trades, long standing customer/vendor relationships, or direct personal connections that may have taken years to develop. Tea like many other interests that involve some aspect of collecting there is often the assumption from those entering in from outside that anything can be bought as long as you have the cash, or at least that having lots of disposable income is the only way to get certain things. Of course there is always someone happy to take uninformed people's money, but there is almost something reassuring to me when there are certain items that tend trade hands only between those in the know, not only out of money but mutual interest/respect and appreciation. Whether it is at cost, profit, or as a generous gift, it still provides me with some hope that not everything in this world can just be purchased.

Sometimes I think its also as simple as not wanting to humor someone's laziness - I have quite a few teas that I really enjoy and bought up in quantity, and while its maybe not available from yunnansourcing, it still isn't THAT hard to find if someone else really wanted to (after all, I found it! and my Chinese skills are zero)- that said I'm not going to necessarily blast it out on social media to strangers- a mutual tea friend though, sure happy to tell if asked directly. I think particularly in the instagram tea world there are a lot of people who are absolute beginners or basically just compulsive shop-a-holics that decide they need to have or try everything, or ask where to get something almost more just to 'engage' than actually caring/wanting an answer about tracking down a particular merchant. As others pointed out said people are also particularly likely to be samplers, probably as any beginner should be until they know what they like, but again some vendors aren't going to make their money on and are probably even inconvenienced or annoyed by such buyers. I'm not going to send someone to a trusted small time specialist who will badger them with 50 emails trying to learn something from them for free and only spend $10 and then gripe about shipping prices. In the long run I think thats a good way for vendors to decide us here in the Western market aren't worth bothering with. I think social media especially creates a big awful blur in terms of attention/engagement vs actual knowledge/experience due to people's desire for attention/free stuff and IMO pseudo-"community" - not just for tea but in general. People who have made their first Pu order and after two months start a blog/instagram and youtube channel reviewing tea like they actually know anything other than what was written on the vendor description, which also means more marketing/misinformation being spread around. Holding back or at least not actively volunteering certain information to strangers I think is just a way of pushing back against this. On the flip side I do think there are lots of people who are newer or very enthusiastic in the Western arena who also do think certain things are much more rare than they might be due to what they have access to because they don't have those better connections.