Yixing

[steanze]

I am consistently amazed at how well Chinese calligraphy have been blended into all sorts of objects, teapots being no exception.

Yes exactly I very much agree with this observation. I think it has to do in part with the extreme versatility of Chinese calligraphy, and in part with the particular attention the craftsmen paid specifically to the integration process and in the object as a whole. In fact, often some calligraphers specialized in calligraphy on certain particular objects - for instance the calligrapher working on calligraphy for Yixing wares might be a different person from a calligrapher working on different kinds of objects.

[Bok]

That is a good thing though, it means that although you have been learning quickly, there are still more exciting things to learn in the world of Yixing...

Ok, no need to be patronising here.

If you read carefully I wasn’t comparing Palatino with the calligraphy, it’s served as an example of a famous calligrapher who was not a good designer and happened to create Palatino.

And I strongly disagree that a teapot is not designed, it may be artfully done, but in the end of the day it’s meant as a utilitarian object, whereas art doesn’t have to be “useful” per se.

Give these kind of teapots to a group of design/creative professionals and very likely a huge part will see them as tacky and kitsch. Some people like table cloths with flowers on them, some prefer their tables without to appreciate the grain of the wood. Different strokes for different people.

[LeoFox]

Regarding calligraphy, the classical chinese education included practicing calligraphy from a very young age - practically once a brush can be held - and then forced to copy texts at the crack of dawn for hours every day. Mistakes were met with punitive punishment by the father - as calligraphy not only reflected class and education but also moral uprightness and character - and the good name of the family. My grandfather noted that he and his brothers were forced to do this and the punishments were not softened even if a kid was sick or had any other kind of excuse. No food unless the calligraphy was deemed acceptable and the beating came from a special stick. In the end, he was excused from this torture after fainting from the beatings and lack of food several times..and then shown to have a heart condition. Funny enough, he ended being a writer, while the others went into business and banking.

[LeoFox]

That is a good thing though, it means that although you have been learning quickly, there are still more exciting things to learn in the world of Yixing...

Ok, no need to be patronising here.

If you read carefully I wasn’t comparing Palatino with the calligraphy, it’s served as an example of a famous calligrapher who was not a good designer and happened to create Palatino.

And I strongly disagree that a teapot is not designed, it may be artfully done, but in the end of the day it’s meant as a utilitarian object, whereas art doesn’t have to be “useful” per se.

Give these kind of teapots to a group of design/creative professionals and very likely a huge part will see them as tacky and kitsch. Some people like table cloths with flowers on them, some prefer their tables without to appreciate the grain of the wood. Different strokes for different people.

I agree with Bok. Often in the appreciation of chinese calligraphy - the immediate impact is important - how it conveys a restraint, a sense of formality, of authority or of over flowing passion. Since each stroke is intimately tied to the person given how they were forced to practice and develop them since before they can even understand the words themselves - what the text actually says can be secondary.

When used for purely decorative purposes to align or cross reference other things, some of that spirit can be lost.

I'm no expert, but from what I understand, many academics and critics would argue that an overwrought preoccupation with historicism was a major feature of some late Qing dynasty arts. They are heavily weighed down by a code of cross referencing classics and can only be appreciated at that level - their other aesthetic aspects being sacrificed.

The funny thing about this kind of referential art is that it traps the viewer into appreciating..or buying it : if you don't appreciate it, you are a commoner; if you do, then you are educated - buy it.

[steanze]

Give these kind of teapots to a group of design/creative professionals and very likely a huge part will see them as tacky and kitsch.

Design/creative professionals would do better to judge what they understand, and not exercise the presumption to be an authority on things they don't really understand. The comparison between calligraphy and flower decorations on a tablecloth is very telling of the extent of the misunderstanding.

I'm no expert, but from what I understand, many academics and critics would argue that an overwrought preoccupation with historicism was a major feature of some late Qing dynasty arts. They are heavily weighed down by a code of cross referencing classics and can only be appreciated at that level - their other aesthetic aspects being sacrificed.

We are talking about mid Qing and ROC teapots here though... so I am not sure about the relevance of your point about late Qing art. I think it's a good idea to read more on your part before leading more readers of the forum into this misunderstanding.

Since each stroke is intimately tied to the person given how they were forced to practice and develop them since before they can even understand the words themselves - what the text actually says can be secondary.

Also here, each calligrapher usually mastered several different calligraphy styles, and many were developed later in their careers. I think there is quite a bit of guessing and romanticization going into this account.

[Balthazar]

Regarding the “enjoying the music without knowing the language”, it’s an interesting comparison for a couple of reasons. I think there is some music you cannot really appreciate fully if you do not understand the language of the lyrics. For example, I don’t think I’d find much enjoyment in the music of Bob Dylan if I knew no English, perhaps except for a few songs. Similarly, for Chinese I have a very hard time believing anyone who doesn’t speak a word will find much enjoyment in the music of contemporary artists such as Li Zhi or Song Dongye.

(Similarly, I’ve known one person who held the view that instrumental music is always a purer (and ultimately “better”) form. “Let the instruments do all the talking,” the lyrics may be wonderful on their (written) own, but they take away the pure focus on the instrument sounds. I think this is a limited view, but yes, different strokes for different folks!)

You could say these are different layers of enjoyment to most forms of art, some of which you need knowledge of a particular language/culture/philosophy to unlock. This is not to say that they should be evaluated arithmetically (n points to “layer 1”, n points to “layer 2” for a total of …), or that the more layers you can tick off the better the piece of art. And some people may have no interest in some of these layers at all, which often leads to the somewhat crude (imo) argument about “immediate intuitive” appeal (i.e., anyone, regardless of background or interests, should be able to identify the value of something, or else it is the emperor's new clothes).

A good example is Chinese gardens, imo. They’re intuitively visually pleasing to anyone who visits, but knowing about the very international interplay between objects, shapes, distance etc. and the thinking behind this is usually necessary for a full appreciation of them.

[steanze]

Regarding the “enjoying the music without knowing the language”, it’s an interesting comparison for a couple of reasons. I think there is some music you cannot really appreciate fully if you do not understand the language of the lyrics. For example, I don’t think I’d find much enjoyment in the music of Bob Dylan if I knew no English, perhaps except for a few songs. Similarly, for Chinese I have a very hard time believing anyone who doesn’t speak a word will find much enjoyment in the music of contemporary artists such as Li Zhi or Song Dongye.

(Similarly, I’ve known one person who held the view that instrumental music is always a purer (and ultimately “better”) form. “Let the instruments do all the talking,” the lyrics may be wonderful on their (written) own, but they take away the pure focus on the instrument sounds. I think this is a limited view, but yes, different strokes for different folks!)

You could say these are different layers of enjoyment to most forms of art, some of which you need knowledge of a particular language/culture/philosophy to unlock. This is not to say that they should be evaluated arithmetically (n points to “layer 1”, n points to “layer 2” for a total of …), or that the more layers you can tick off the better the piece of art. And some people may have no interest in some of these layers at all, which often leads to the somewhat crude (imo) argument about “immediate intuitive” appeal (i.e., anyone, regardless of background or interests, should be able to identify the value of something, or else it is the emperor's new clothes).

A good example is Chinese gardens, imo. They’re intuitively visually pleasing to anyone who visits, but knowing about the very international interplay between objects, shapes, distance etc. and the thinking behind this is usually necessary for a full appreciation of them.

^^ some very good points here

[Bok]

Design/creative professionals would do better to judge what they understand, and not exercise the presumption to be an authority on things they don't really understand. The comparison between calligraphy and flower decorations on a tablecloth is very telling of the extent of the misunderstanding.

And other professional not studied in Classical Chinese art, history and language probably neither - isn't that your point?

I think we’re done here.

If I were you I’d seriously review my attitude or the way of putting your opinions into words. Disrespectful and patronising. I thought you better than that.

[steanze]

And other professional not studied in Classical Chinese art, history and language probably neither - isn't that your point?

I think we’re done here.

If I were you I’d seriously review my attitude or the way of putting your opinions into words. Disrespectful and patronising. I thought you better than that.

Indeed we are done... of course when I kindly answered your question about the appreciation for antiques in different historical periods, you could have kept for yourself your poorly informed criticism of the calligraphy on my teapots (which I showed for a different purpose entirely) and you would have avoided a lesson.

[Bok]

Indeed we are done... of course when I kindly answered your question about the appreciation for antiques in different historical periods, you could have kept for yourself your poorly informed criticism of the calligraphy on my teapots (which I showed for a different purpose entirely) and you would have avoided a lesson.

Oh thank you grand gate keeper of the sole truth. Lesson much appreciated. Seriously... The grandstanding leaves me speechless.

[steanze]

Oh thank you grand gate keeper of the sole truth. Lesson much appreciated. Seriously... The grandstanding leaves me speechless.

You are welcome!

[Bok]

Something not too far into history.... but enough to make me twitch.... hahahahaha.....

Proportions look better than the one above, even if it may be younger!

[Youzi]

And I thought Europe was hot these days.

I feel like both sides are correct in their nature.

I'll just add this famous calligraphed shipiao for reference.

Shipiao-s were commonly used for calligraphy proposes, similarly to what Bok mentioned due to their flat "paper like" nature.

The rubbing is a good example of it.

[steanze]

And I thought Europe was hot these days.

I feel like both sides are correct in their nature.

I'll just add this famous callographed shipiao for reference.

Shipiao-s were commonly used for calligraphy proposes, similarly to what Bok mentioned due to their flat "paper like" nature.

The rubbing is a good example of it.

Thanks for sharing. This is a masterpiece, far superior to the pieces I shared earlier.

[steanze]

Something not too far into history.... but enough to make me twitch.... hahahahaha.....

beautiful pot! The balance between spout and handle is excellent. Nice tribute to Mansheng