Yixing

[Bok]

Maybe it’s a cultural thing. It doesn’t really matter, where something comes from, when in all likelihood it’s just a story. Asian collectors are way more suspicious than Western collectors in that regard. So they concentrate on the verifiable points of the object itself. At least that is my interpretation. I’ve never even witnessed anyone asking an antique dealer here where something comes from... it’s not something that people do around here.

Part of the skills of an antique dealer is also to know who has what and might be willing to part with it at what price not something you share with your customers... a tea shop won’t tell you their farm connections either, that wouldn’t be a very smart thing to do, would it?

[LeoFox]

Interesting quote about provenance in antique chinese porcelain:

Antique dealers who have really no intention to deceive customers in the first place may use provenance to show how legitimate an item is. This is more likely if they are not expert at identifying Chinese porcelain. It covers for their inability to judge

https://www.chinese-antique-porcelain.c ... elain.html

[Bok]

Interesting quote about provenance in antique chinese porcelain:

Antique dealers who have really no intention to deceive customers in the first place may use provenance to show how legitimate an item is. This is more likely if they are not expert at identifying Chinese porcelain. It covers for their inability to judge

https://www.chinese-antique-porcelain.c ... elain.html

Makes a lot of sense

[LeoFox]

Interesting quote about provenance in antique chinese porcelain:

Antique dealers who have really no intention to deceive customers in the first place may use provenance to show how legitimate an item is. This is more likely if they are not expert at identifying Chinese porcelain. It covers for their inability to judge

https://www.chinese-antique-porcelain.c ... elain.html

Quote continues in a linked page from that site:

If the seller mentions any kind of provenance... my advice is: disregard it.
Provenance is often false information.
Depending on where you buy, the dealer or his source may have made up a story. At the best it is useless.
The only provenance that I could think of right now, that I would rely on, is that of shipwreck ceramics. bought directly from a company involved in legally recovering this from ship wrecks, and only if they have a good reputation.
Even with shipwreck ceramics, if you buy them somewhere else the risk of buying a fake antique is the same as with other porcelain. It might not really be  coming from a wreck. Even shipwreck ceramics are faked nowadays, completely with false covering of maritime growth. Fakes are also put into fishing nets and lowered into the sea. After some time, when mollusks or other marine growth has settled on its surface, the new items are offered as shipwreck items.

[LeoFox]

As for provenance in the West, I heard it was mainly an academic exercise prior to the late 80s. It became a big thing a little later with rising public sensitivity to scandals like art pieces acquired through Nazi sources which increasingly opened up a can of worms. I remember my archaeologist friend for some time refused to go to the met museum of art because of their poor reputation for sourcing from black markets and looters.

[TeaTotaling]

@Andrew S What Zhuni did you pick up from ZAG?

[Bok]

As for provenance in the West, I heard it was mainly an academic exercise prior to the late 80s. It became a big thing a little later with rising public sensitivity to scandals like art pieces acquired through Nazi sources which increasingly opened up a can of worms. I remember my archaeologist friend for some time refused to go to the MOMA because of their poor reputation for sourcing from black markets and looters.

Pretty sure a vast majority of museum contents is at least colonial loot But we’re straying away from Yixing...

[mbanu]

As for provenance in the West, I heard it was mainly an academic exercise prior to the late 80s. It became a big thing a little later with rising public sensitivity to scandals like art pieces acquired through Nazi sources which increasingly opened up a can of worms. I remember my archaeologist friend for some time refused to go to the MOMA because of their poor reputation for sourcing from black markets and looters.

The practical reason for provenance is usually connected to not being held liable as a seller of stolen goods, or, as a buyer, having your item returned to the original owner. This is why pawn shops in the U.S. keep records of who they have bought things from, even though the buyers generally are indifferent to the history of the things they are buying. I suppose if this was not a concern (there was no enforceable law against the buyers or sellers of stolen goods), then there would be less incentive to track these things.

The ability to deter counterfeits was sort of a silver lining to this, I think.

[TeaTotaling]

TeaTotaling Zhuni textures as I mentioned above, are diverse... no one fits all answers.

Do you have any specific markers you look for when determining if a Zhuni is of good quality?

With antiques it’s almost impossible to know until you try the pot, due to the large variety of blends and differences in periods.

The only bad sign is usually when the colour is too light and indicates a possible low firing.

Very good, thank you!

Briefly comparing LQ/ER Zhuni to a recently made Zhuni, regarding tasting notes and mouthfeel, has been intriguing. The LQ/ER Zhuni has the slightest rounding off the top with added minerality to the mouthfeel. The newer Zhuni is incredibly porcelain like with no perceivable rounding and a very smooth mouthfeel.

[mbanu]

Interesting quote about provenance in antique chinese porcelain:

Antique dealers who have really no intention to deceive customers in the first place may use provenance to show how legitimate an item is. This is more likely if they are not expert at identifying Chinese porcelain. It covers for their inability to judge

https://www.chinese-antique-porcelain.c ... elain.html

Quote continues in a linked page from that site:

If the seller mentions any kind of provenance... my advice is: disregard it.
Provenance is often false information.
Depending on where you buy, the dealer or his source may have made up a story. At the best it is useless.
The only provenance that I could think of right now, that I would rely on, is that of shipwreck ceramics. bought directly from a company involved in legally recovering this from ship wrecks, and only if they have a good reputation.
Even with shipwreck ceramics, if you buy them somewhere else the risk of buying a fake antique is the same as with other porcelain. It might not really be  coming from a wreck. Even shipwreck ceramics are faked nowadays, completely with false covering of maritime growth. Fakes are also put into fishing nets and lowered into the sea. After some time, when mollusks or other marine growth has settled on its surface, the new items are offered as shipwreck items.

I think this person is mixing up provenance with authenticity. Even counterfeits have provenance; if you have a complete provenance of a counterfeit, its counterfeit status becomes clear as a side-effect. So while it is true that just because the previous three owners believed it was one thing it is not necessarily so, this verifies that the item existed during the times of ownership.

[Youzi]

Do you have any specific markers you look for when determining if a Zhuni is of good quality?

With antiques it’s almost impossible to know until you try the pot, due to the large variety of blends and differences in periods.

The only bad sign is usually when the colour is too light and indicates a possible low firing.

Very good, thank you!

Briefly comparing LQ/ER Zhuni to a recently made Zhuni, regarding tasting notes and mouthfeel, has been intriguing. The LQ/ER Zhuni has the slightest rounding off the top with added minerality to the mouthfeel. The newer Zhuni is incredibly porcelain like with no perceivable rounding and a very smooth mouthfeel.

Which Modern Zhuni have you compared your LQER Zhuni to?

[TeaTotaling]

@Youzi

[Rmt]

Brought out my headless ox pot that I found last year and made some late night shu. It’s a nice pot, but a bit too big for me. Not often I have a need to make this much tea haha.

51B4C2F5-AA86-4F4F-9222-8A41D0244CB5.jpeg (261.43 KiB) Viewed 8542 times

[Mark-S]

Turn the lid around this is just cruel But nice pot I only do 2-3 sessions with bigger pots. Most of the time one session before work and one after.

[Andrew S]

@Rmt: I think that a big pot is often the best way to enjoy pu er. And there's something to be said for making tea casually like this when a tiny teapot won't do.

@TeaTotaling: not the best photo, but here's the ZAG pot brewing some tie luo han.

@Bok will probably judge me for saying this, but I'm going to try brewing some old liu an in it next time...

Andrew