Yixing

[Mark-S]

I agree with you that an awesome F1 would cost a bomb... but with $2000, you should be looking at at ROC or LQER pots.

The problem with antiques however is that a) it's harder to find genuine ones b) they are often not decorated. I know that there are decorated antiques, but I prefer most F1 styles. I'm not very clumsy but sometimes I just bump the pots against something. I have not damaged a pot however. But still... the risk is there. So for me it's best to focus on decorated pots from F1 (70's to 80's). They are not expensive (if you don't buy them from an expert) and the clay is fine enough for me. And money is also a problem if I want to drink high-quality teas. That's my order of priority: clay quality, tea quality, water quality, design, workmanship, age.

@Bok

I don't trust everyone on Facebook, but there are people who seem to be knowledgeable, for example Dai Jeff, Harvey Liu or the owner of the group. And if a pot is wrong I think someone there would notice it. And if they don't it's a very good replica which would also be fine. Also I don't think I should quit searching for decorated pots just because most people don't like them or because they are hard to authenticate. The tea tastes better if I like the pots.

You are right that this forum is a great source of information, but it's hard to trust an opinion if the argument is: "This pot is crap". If you tell me something like "This pot is crap because it is slip casted." then it's different. I do want you to be honest, but it's not helpful to get an answer like: "This pot is crap." You cannot learn much from this answer. In addition, many collectors here don't like / own decorated F1 pots. So in my opinion it's not necessarily true that you are all knowing what you are talking about. However, I am sure that you are very experienced when it comes to antiques or shui ping pots from the early days of F1, and I'd trust your opinion in this matter.

@OCTO

You often hear something like: "I prefer to brew this tea in a small/medium/big flat/regular/tall pot made of zini/hongni/zhuni/duanni." Sometimes you can even read the firing they prefer. So I guess that there are teas more likely to be suitable for this type of pot. But you are right, I'll try the pot with different teas.

[Bok]

So for me it's best to focus on decorated pots from F1 (70's to 80's). They are not expensive (if you don't buy them from an expert) and the clay is fine enough for me. And money is also a problem if I want to drink high-quality teas. That's my order of priority: clay quality, tea quality, water quality, design, workmanship, age.

That is all fine, the only thing you get wrong in my opinion is that you are looking for good clay quality as a first priority, while looking for cheap pots. That does mostly not work like that (for any time period of Yixing) better clay, more money, be it old or new teapot. There might be the odd one out that you can find cheaply, but the reason you find a lot of 50$-ish vintage pots is precisely because they do often not have good clay/firing.

I don't trust everyone on Facebook, but there are people who seem to be knowledgeable, for example Dai Jeff, Harvey Liu or the owner of the group. And if a pot is wrong I think someone there would notice it. And if they don't it's a very good replica which would also be fine. Also I don't think I should quit searching for decorated pots just because most people don't like them or because they are hard to authenticate. The tea tastes better if I like the pots.

Don't forget that saving face is important in Asian culture, you will rarely get a straight answer if people do not know you. It happens, but then it quickly descends into ugly word fights, which is why people are holding back and reply politely, even more so if a Westerner is involved.

You are right that this forum is a great source of information, but it's hard to trust an opinion if the argument is: "This pot is crap". If you tell me something like "This pot is crap because it is slip casted." then it's different. I do want you to be honest, but it's not helpful to get an answer like: "This pot is crap." You cannot learn much from this answer. In addition, many collectors here don't like / own decorated F1 pots. So in my opinion it's not necessarily true that you are all knowing what you are talking about. However, I am sure that you are very experienced when it comes to antiques or shui ping pots from the early days of F1, and I'd trust your opinion in this matter.

Often we can not sum up years of experience and handled pots in easy "this pot is crap, because A,BC etc." You need the reference library to compare it to. Which of course is a whole other dilemma. Some things just "look off" because certain curves and bends do not look like the ones from confirmed examples, these are things that can be so very subtle and you will need to have a certain artistic ability and sharp eye to even notice – how do you explain that to someone? Like that curve is XYZ degrees less bendy than it should be? "This handle does not have enough expressiveness." You see the problem?

That Duanni for example is like 1000s of tourist trash pots I see here sold next to the roadside by the dozen in Taiwan, cost maybe 5$... plus all the dirt and grit of the road for free. Don't even need to discuss the calligraphy. And honestly it is futile to discuss obviously bad pots. The ones you can learn more from are the doubtful cases, a bit right, a bit not. So what I am saying is, if a certain majority thinks a pot is crap, it is not worth discussing, if there is doubt, naturally a discussion will evolve.

[Mark-S]

That is all fine, the only thing you get wrong in my opinion is that you are looking for good clay quality as a first priority, while looking for cheap pots. That does mostly not work like that (for any time period of Yixing) better clay, more money, be it old or new teapot. There might be the odd one out that you can find cheaply, but the reason you find a lot of 50$-ish vintage pots is precisely because they do often not have good clay/firing.

You are right when the pots are sold by professionals. Many of these pots however were sold to Westerners who often just use them for decoration in their homes. I could take some close up photos from my teapots and some from professional sellers and shuffle them. I don't think that you or anyone else here could say for sure which clay is from my pots and which clay is from the +$500 pots.

Don't forget that saving face is important in Asian culture, you will rarely get a straight answer if people do not know you. It happens, but then it quickly descends into ugly word fights, which is why people are holding back and reply politely, even more so if a Westerner is involved.

I did not think of that. Thanks for the warning

Like that curve is XYZ degrees less bendy than it should be? "This handle does not have enough expressiveness." You see the problem?

No need to be so specific. It would be enough to hear something like "The shape of the handle does not look right." Then I'd know where to look.

That Duanni for example is like 1000s of tourist trash pots I see here sold next to the roadside by the dozen in Taiwan, cost maybe 5$...

You are quite possibly right with that, but I really hope that you are wrong. This would prove my point that you guys are not right all the time, haha.

[Bok]

Hope dies last.

[OCTO]

You are right when the pots are sold by professionals. Many of these pots however were sold to Westerners who often just use them for decoration in their homes. I could take some close up photos from my teapots and some from professional sellers and shuffle them. I don't think that you or anyone else here could say for sure which clay is from my pots and which clay is from the +$500 pots.

There is no better comparison than to have multiples of the same pot and comparing them side by side. Do keep in mind that photo evaluation of teapots are never 100% accurate. We have encountered experts verifying pots through photos and when received in hand, their very quickly change their opinion on the pot. This is a very common scenario. Get in your hands as many pots as you can get, scouring across the globe. Buy them and compare them side by side. Make sure you travel to well trusted vendor and purchase one that's categorised as "Diamond Grade" as Chanting Pines would put it... I simply call it GradeA. Use that as a benchmark and do your own comparison. I know it's easier said than done, especially when you are in the West. @Bok knows this very well. Take the photos side by side, It's easier to see differences or similarities when both objects are under the same exposure and environment. Two different photos will result in different EXIF data, even though the parameter are set similarly.

OCTO

You often hear something like: "I prefer to brew this tea in a small/medium/big flat/regular/tall pot made of zini/hongni/zhuni/duanni." Sometimes you can even read the firing they prefer. So I guess that there are teas more likely to be suitable for this type of pot. But you are right, I'll try the pot with different teas.

@Mark-S

If you take a deep dive into teapot characteristics, then, yes, Each pot is different and yields different results. Especially pre-2000 pots. Go and explore the world of tea. It is a vast and interesting journey!... What others find appealing to their pallets might not be your cup of tea. I've been there, argued through that, bruised and roughed.. but you will always come to a common conclusion.... to each their own. Just keep in mind.. It's always FRIENDSHIP OVER A CUP. That's my stand. Right tea, wrong tea, right pot, wrong pot, good clay, bad clay, never forget that. We are here for the love of a common hobby, not doctrine.... hahahahaha....

Have fun and remember to share your journey with us. I have made many many good friends through a simple cup of tea.

Cheers!!

[pantry]

I just got my first benshan duan pot, and wasn’t ready for how easily it could stain. After a session with shu pu, it stained like nobody else’s business. I frantically rubbed it with a normal kitchen towel (my mistake), and now the pot is super patchy. Could one scratch a pot surface with cloth? Any tips on how to raise this type of clay evenly? I do not plan on brewing more shu in it. Maybe aged sheng. Would’ve loved to keep it as a green tea pot, but haven’t been drinking enough green to devote a pot to.

[Mark-S]

Make sure you travel to well trusted vendor and purchase one that's categorised as "Diamond Grade" as Chanting Pines would put it... I simply call it GradeA. Use that as a benchmark and do your own comparison.

Thanks for this advice. How much would a Zini F1 pot with "GradeA" clay cost from a trusted vendor? Maybe I'll save some money for it and buy one of these pots to get a comparison. I also did this with tea and it worked great. I don't care about the potter's fame or the craftsmanship. Just the clay's quality is important.

It's always FRIENDSHIP OVER A CUP. That's my stand. Right tea, wrong tea, right pot, wrong pot, good clay, bad clay, never forget that. We are here for the love of a common hobby, not doctrine.... hahahahaha....

I'll keep that in mind.

[Mark-S]

I just got my first benshan duan pot, and wasn’t ready for how easily it could stain. After a session with shu pu, it stained like nobody else’s business. I frantically rubbed it with a normal kitchen towel (my mistake), and now the pot is super patchy. Could one scratch a pot surface with cloth? Any tips on how to raise this type of clay evenly? I do not plan on brewing more shu in it. Maybe aged sheng. Would’ve loved to keep it as a green tea pot, but haven’t been drinking enough green to devote a pot to.

I think it depends on the towel if you can scratch the surface or not. I asked this question recently, and I think @OCTO told me that he just uses common towels he bought from a tea house. I read somewhere that you should not use microfiber cloth, but in my opinion that's bs. It's more important how rough the towel is. There are microfiber towels that feel a bit like a cat's tongue. This would definitely scratch the pot. I'd only use very soft towels.

Regarding the stains: I would not pour tea/water over the pot, and don't fill it to the top. There isn't more you can do in my view.

[Youzi]

I just got my first benshan duan pot, and wasn’t ready for how easily it could stain. After a session with shu pu, it stained like nobody else’s business. I frantically rubbed it with a normal kitchen towel (my mistake), and now the pot is super patchy. Could one scratch a pot surface with cloth? Any tips on how to raise this type of clay evenly? I do not plan on brewing more shu in it. Maybe aged sheng. Would’ve loved to keep it as a green tea pot, but haven’t been drinking enough green to devote a pot to.

Use soft water. <100tds. Rinse the pot with water after you put on the lid. Dry up remaining water droplets with your tea towel. Don't keep the teapot in rinse, tea, etc. Keep the bottom dry too. That's it.


You can't scratch a teapot with a towel. That's impossible. However you can scratch it with "dust", certain particles stuck between the towel and the pot. You can just imagine how it happens in your mind. That's why it's better to use a thicker soft towel and gently wipe it down, so that in case some particle is stuck there, you don't push it against the surface of the teapot and then drag it over the body.

[Bok]

I just got my first benshan duan pot, and wasn’t ready for how easily it could stain. After a session with shu pu, it stained like nobody else’s business. I frantically rubbed it with a normal kitchen towel (my mistake), and now the pot is super patchy. Could one scratch a pot surface with cloth? Any tips on how to raise this type of clay evenly? I do not plan on brewing more shu in it. Maybe aged sheng. Would’ve loved to keep it as a green tea pot, but haven’t been drinking enough green to devote a pot to.

New pot? Some – actually most, old Duanni is underfired so it has the so called puke-black syndrome. Meaning darker blotches tend to appear on the surface unevenly. Other than that, not brewing dark coloured teas will help

Pictures?

[OCTO]

@Mark-S

Thanks for this advice. How much would a Zini F1 pot with "GradeA" clay cost from a trusted vendor? Maybe I'll save some money for it and buy one of these pots to get a comparison.

In terms of cost, I have seen a Grade A costing between USD400 to USD1000 excluding shipping. On certain pots with specific documented historical background, it can go up to USD1500 per pot. It's definitely a good idea to do a side by side comparison.

Thanks for this advice. How much would a Zini F1 pot with "GradeA" clay cost from a trusted vendor? Maybe I'll save some money for it and buy one of these pots to get a comparison. I also did this with tea and it worked great. I don't care about the potter's fame or the craftsmanship. Just the clay's quality is important.

@Mark-S

There are some contradicting criteria there..... Referencing to Green Label Factory1 pots since that's where your eyes are focused at. Different grades of clay goes to different hands. You won't find good quality clays in the hands of junior potters. Those clays are reserved for the seniors who's workmanship is impeccable. Therefore, quality clay will always go hand in hand with good workmanship and an experienced pair of hands.


Cheers!!

[OCTO]

I just got my first benshan duan pot, and wasn’t ready for how easily it could stain. After a session with shu pu, it stained like nobody else’s business. I frantically rubbed it with a normal kitchen towel (my mistake), and now the pot is super patchy. Could one scratch a pot surface with cloth? Any tips on how to raise this type of clay evenly? I do not plan on brewing more shu in it. Maybe aged sheng. Would’ve loved to keep it as a green tea pot, but haven’t been drinking enough green to devote a pot to.

@pantry

Can share some photos? You might want to consider brewing some oolong with the pot.

Cheers!

[Mark-S]

You won't find good quality clays in the hands of junior potters. Those clays are reserved for the seniors who's workmanship is impeccable. Therefore, quality clay will always go hand in hand with good workmanship and an experienced pair of hands.

That's interesting. On teachat I read somewhere that during CR and green label era everybody got the same chance to work with excellent clay. So this is wrong in your opinion?

[Mark-S]

Could you please tell me what he means? I cannot speak Chinese and the translation is weird, so I don't know if it's helpful or not.

[OCTO]

You won't find good quality clays in the hands of junior potters. Those clays are reserved for the seniors who's workmanship is impeccable. Therefore, quality clay will always go hand in hand with good workmanship and an experienced pair of hands.

That's interesting. On teachat I read somewhere that during CR and green label era everybody got the same chance to work with excellent clay. So this is wrong in your opinion?

@Mark-S

Well, that’s not what I’ve understood and learnt from years of learning and collecting alongside senior collectors from my region. It doesn’t make sense to make available good clay that might risk getting ruined by sloppy craftsmanship in the hands of junior potters. I have seen rather sloppy work from green label era too.

Cheers!