Help With My Teapot

[Atlas]

~snip~

Sorry, I was unclear - when I say "unadulterated" I mean "not treated with anything that's not clay (eg wax/polish/paint)".

Fake-yixing != "fake pot", nor is it necessarily unsafe or "bad for tea". The difference between "blending" and "adulterating" a clay-body is just whether the components are safe, no?

Are non-yixing Chinese clays generally a concern for heavy-metals and the like?

[steanze]

Sorry, I was unclear - when I say "unadulterated" I mean "not treated with anything that's not clay (eg wax/polish/paint)".

Fake-yixing != "fake pot", nor is it necessarily unsafe or "bad for tea". The difference between "blending" and "adulterating" a clay-body is just whether the components are safe, no?

Are non-yixing Chinese clays generally a concern for heavy-metals and the like?

I see. I agree with you that it was not treated with wax/polish/paint. However, I think it was mixed with something that's not yixing clay (it does not look like the usual tiao-sha pots). I suspect the clay was mixed with non-yixing additives before firing. This does not necessarily mean that it is unsafe. For example, F1 regularly mixed pots with manganese oxide to make hei ni, and with cobalt oxide to make mou lv ni, and those are safe as far as I know. However, I would not be fully confident with this particular mixing without knowing what it is they put in.

[Atlas]

To be candid, I have next to know knowledge about yixing, and I don't doubt you at all when you say OP's first pot and my longdan aren't genuine.

However, I would not be fully confident with this particular mixing without knowing what it is they put in.

I guess the way I see it, there's fear around ingenuine yixing (because it's no-longer this exotic mystical natural thing), but I've never seen that level of caution applied to western potters - no-one's getting scared that Andrzej Bero might be using "artificial" clays (I'd assume he's buying clay bodies off the shelf and not digging clay out of his backyard), you know?

[steanze]

I guess the way I see it, there's fear around ingenuine yixing (because it's no-longer this exotic mystical natural thing), but I've never seen that level of caution applied to western potters - no-one's getting scared that Andrzej Bero might be using "artificial" clays (I'd assume he's buying clay bodies off the shelf and not digging clay out of his backyard), you know?

I don't think it's about "natural" vs "artificial". All chemistry is natural, but that includes poisons too. IIRC old yixing pots have been tested for lead and other potentially harmful compounds and they came out as safe. Some fake yixings smell weird when pouring hot water, unlike Bero's pots, suggesting that at least some of the fake yixings have an obvious problem. What happens when one has a yixing which looks like other stuff has been added to the clay? It could be fine (as F1 heini is I think) - or it could be problematic. Even if it does not smell weird, it might still leach. So it's up to one's decision whether to risk it or not. One could test it, but it's not really worth the cost for a fake pot. And given that gaiwans work well for most teas, and real yixings are not so impossible to get, I would not really see the point of risking it.
The other point is the aesthetics. Mixing additives to the clay needs to be done with elegance to produce good aesthetic results. Otherwise, one might end up with a teapot equivalent of neon green pants. There are many such pots on the market nowadays, with not-so-good craftsmanship and remarkable colors to grab attention and look unusual, but I don't find their "look at me" style very appealing.
Many of Bero's pots are glazed, and there are quite stringent rules on glaze safety because there have been so many cases of lead leaching in the past. Also in Bero's case, there's a point to be made about the aesthetic of his work, the pots are handmade, and quite creative. So I do think that Bero's pots and the mass-produced "yixing" with additives are quite different cases.

[Atlas]

Fair point about the smell, though I'd (perhaps incorrectly) assumed that that was due to surface treatment like shoe polish or paint. It would surprise me somewhat if something added to the clay was able to be smelled after firing, though I suppose clay itself smells, when wet.

Re the aesthetics point, I'm not saying fake fixing is "good", just questioning the idea that it's as harmful/risky as people often say.

Re the bero comparison, I just meant "any given western potter" doesn't generally face scrutiny over whether their clays and glazes are safe. Whether or not pots are artistically crafted doesn't really beat on safety, though.

[theredbaron]

Re the bero comparison, I just meant "any given western potter" doesn't generally face scrutiny over whether their clays and glazes are safe. Whether or not pots are artistically crafted doesn't really beat on safety, though.

This hasn't got anything to do with west vs. east.
Any single contemporary known potter, be it a western potter, or a Japanese potter, for example, will not be under such scrutiny.
The faking of Yixing pots however is a huge industry, given the vast amounts of money that are involved in the trade of Yixing pots. Some may be simply imitations of old and/or famous artist pots with genuine Yixing clay, or pots with clay from somewhere else. But they may also be fake old pots with treatment of potentially very harmful chemicals to make them look old. In the faking industry of antiques soaking objects for extended times in manure or piss is not unknown, and not the worst.
I once bought a supposedly old pot, which looked very genuine. But when i started cleaning it, and boiled it, it turned out to be covered in a strange and sticky chemical substance which i would most definitely not have wanted to ingest.

[Atlas]

-snip-

Is this an issue for pots that aren't sold as old, though? (Because I don't know, not because I think it's not)

Like, fake patina is one thing, but it's not the same as faking a clay on something presented as a new/modern pot.

[Shane]

There are no weird smells, there was no residue or impurities in the water after it was boiled. It was not described as very old or antique by the seller.

I don't think that it is unheard of to mix other materials with Yixing. As a matter of fact I think it was done a lot more than people may realize. I don't have the sources to back that up at the moment. I will look for the links to post if I can find them.

I am in the process of uploading high-def images as we speak.

[Shane]

Here is a link to my album.

https://imgur.com/a/B5fy4

[steanze]

Re the bero comparison, I just meant "any given western potter" doesn't generally face scrutiny over whether their clays and glazes are safe. Whether or not pots are artistically crafted doesn't really beat on safety, though.

There are stringent rules on glaze safety both in the European Union and USA (FDA: see here https://www.fda.gov/RegulatoryInformati ... 214740.htm). I assume there are similar rules also in Japan, with some more flexibility to make space for traditional glazes like Raku which can leach lead. I think there are similar rules in China too, but the existence on the market of products that imitate old pots and are covered in shoe polish or similar suggests that such rules are not enforced very strictly. Therefore, I would recommend some more caution. If the rules are not enforced strictly for shoe-polish covered pots, they might not be enforced strictly for other clay additives too. But if you're not worried, go ahead and use them!

Note that I am making two points: 1) there's reason to think that pottery from places with strict enforced rules about the food safety of glazes will be safer, 2) that there is no other particular reason to use the dubious pieces. Point 2 is the motivation for the discussion about aesthetics. Of course it has nothing to do with safety. But if a pot might be unsafe, and it's not aesthetically pleasing either, why use it? Especially when you can find pots that 1) you can be more confident are safe, and 2) are more aesthetically pleasing? What I am asking is why would you use a pot that does not look nice and might be unsafe, when you could spend $100 and use a pot that looks nice and is safe? Or when you could spend $20 and use a gaiwan that looks nice and is safe? I hope my view is quite clear now

[steanze]

As a matter of fact I think it was done a lot more than people may realize. I don't have the sources to back that up at the moment. I will look for the links to post if I can find them.

As I mentioned, manganese oxide was added to make hei ni, and cobalt oxide to make mou lv ni. For some modern hongni pots, iron oxide was added to nenni clay (for example during the 1990s in F1). Instead, xiao hongni, qingshuini, and most ROC and Qing dynasty clays are not mixed with oxides. Imo, mixing can be ok as long as we know what has been mixed in. If it's a mistery mix, I'd pass.

[Shane]

What if I like the looks of the pot? We all have different tastes in teas, can we not have different taste in pots?

I was talking to Emmett from emmettsteas. I was inquiring about a pot, and I sent him some pictures of my teapot. He said "Looks quite modern, but from pictures looks good. Well made. As ling as it doesn't have off smell when heated should be fine."

[steanze]

What if I like the looks of the pot? We all have different tastes in teas, can we not have different taste in pots?

I was talking to Emmett from emmettsteas. I was inquiring about a pot, and I sent him some pictures of my teapot. He said "Looks quite modern, but from pictures looks good. Well made. As ling as it doesn't have off smell when heated should be fine."

All right. My mistake. I was trying to help, but some people are beyond help. I wish you to learn more about pots one day.

For reference, Emmett came to me on multiple occasions to ask about pots he did not know. So really quoting his view as an authority in this conversation does not make too much sense. I am glad you have your pots and like them, I have mine and like them too. You have exactly the right attitude to learn We all have different tastes in tea, you can keep drinking teabags with artificial flavors.

[Shane]

All right. My mistake. I was trying to help, but some people are beyond help. I wish you to learn more about pots one day.

For reference, Emmett came to me on multiple occasions to ask about pots he did not know. So really quoting his view as an authority in this conversation does not make too much sense. I am glad you have your pots and like them, I have mine and like them too. You have exactly the right attitude to learn We all have different tastes in tea, you can keep drinking teabags with artificial flavors.

I didn't realize that you were the only authority on teapots on this forum. I was never trying to offend you with all my questions, but just because you say the pot is useless I didn't feel comfortable taking one person's word for it.

Anyhow, if it's junk it's junk... I'm ok with that. Maybe I'll set it on the shelf.

I didn't know that a topic like this could make someone be so offensive either... Tea bags... Wow!

[steanze]

I didn't realize that you were the only authority on teapots on this forum. I was never trying to offend you with all my questions, but just because you say the pot is useless I didn't feel comfortable taking one person's word for it.

The authority is Dr. Lv, who just opened the other post