Question regarding rolled roasted teas

[cherrybomb7]

Hi Everyone!
I enjoy rolled roasted oolongs alot, like the ones from Anxi and Taiwan. Lately, something has been irking me a little about them though.
Essentially, I have found that it is harder to differentiate quality between differing teas in this category. I drink a lot of Dancong and Wuyi where noticing subtle nuances between two different varietals or two different vendors rou gui is easy. But I have just noticed more and more when it comes to the rolled style I am drinking it and I like it! But that's about it. They have a nice sweet caramel, maybe floral/fruity thing going on. And from there, it is hard to say the difference.
I wanted to know if other people have thought similarly. Do I need to taste more closely, drink side by side more often? Or is there something innate to this style of tea that maybe brings them closer to a baseline of good but nothing further?
Any thoughts and discussion are appreciated

[Victoria]

Welcome to TeaForum, looking forward to your introduction. Which Taiwan oolong have you tried; LiShan, DanCong, DongDing, Muzha... roasted, oxidized, green? Generaly, with lower grade oolong flavors are muted and the range is more limited. Any particular vendors you are getting oolong from? In my experience, Yancha will have a stronger deeper flavor range, but won’t have the viscosity, thicker sweet mouth feel, of Taiwan oolong. @Tillerman attributes this to higher pectin in Taiwan oolong.

[cherrybomb7]

Hi victoria!
I should have posted more specifics about my own experience with these teas. I am specifically talking about what is typically medium oxidized and roasted, like an old fashioned dong ding. I usually buy from Floating Leaves.
You have a good point when comparing this style to Wuyi and Dancong. The latter have more high/top notes that are going to be more obvious than texture, feel and so on.

[Bok]

I’ve found the general, let’s call it Dongding baseline, can be quite similar. Yet there are huge differences between lower elevation, true Dong ding and those made of high mountain leaves. Electric vs charcoal roasting. Lower quality tends to be coarser, something I call dusty in my throat, endurance and aftertaste all show the level of quality. Some try to mask defects or lack of processing with the roast afterwards. Just recently learned that the oxidation before the roast, properly done has a huge impact on the tea.

Different tea makers have different style. Yet I would agree that the level of diversity is less than among Dancong and Yancha. Maybe also due to the overall yield and limited terroir in Taiwan, as opposed to the humungously huge China.

[Tillerman]

An important element to consider is the expanding use of the hydraulic compressing machine (the "tofu" machine) in the production of oolongs. When this machine is used indiscriminately the tea ball becomes too tight and retains too much moisture. The tightness of the "roll" means that the roasting heat does not easily penetrate to the center of the "ball" and hence the moisture is not dissipated appropriately and the roast not even. This is not a problem when the machine is used properly (only one or two pressings) and the tea is finished using the traditional method. Look carefully at the tightness of the roll when you examine tea before buying.

For what it's worth, this months blog (which I am posting in the blog section) is about the use of this machine. Good tea masters still produce teas that show exemplary individual character - but you must seek them out.

[S_B]

But I have just noticed more and more when it comes to the rolled style I am drinking it and I like it! But that's about it. They have a nice sweet caramel, maybe floral/fruity thing going on.

It's interesting - These are the types of DD/TW tea I tend to stay away from. FLT definitely has good Dong Dings, but they have certain styles that they prefer. Curation has pros and cons. The pros being that if you trust the tastes of the curator, the teas in their collections are generally pretty safe bets. The potential downside can be that if your tastes differ from theirs, a lot of options are closed to you. FLT doesn't really stock teas with a bit more fire to them, because having to wait for them to settle (which can take a few years sometimes) obviously isn't ideal for business. These are the teas I tend to gravitate towards, unfortunately (for me). The style is not necessarily the current popular trend in Taiwan or the West. On top of that, making these teas for a much smaller market, using processing that is labor intensive and also very risky....means that the teas aren't always that easy to just "stumble upon." Within Taiwanese circles, they can still be found here and there with some asking around. As for buying in the West, you could definitely start with Chen Huayin's Dong Dings. There are pros and cons there, as well of course. He has his backstory and popularity, but as for his own dong dings, the "options" are limited. I'd recommend trying some of his heavy roast teas from a few years back, and maybe some low-med roasts from more recently and see if you enjoy them.

I tend to prefer dong dings that are a little more generous on their oxidation level and roast. This doesn't mean that every DD that is more oxidized and more roasted is automatically better, of course...a good roast must accompany the right tea...which can at times make the search a bit of a challenge! I much prefer teas that favor mouthfeel and throat-feel/return over up-front fragrances. For me personally, there is a pretty large range of possibilities of profile that Dong Dings can offer. With different farms, processing, oxidation/roast - and even more factors than just these - there are plenty of beautiful examples of this style of tea all over the "spectrum." Add aged options on there, and different roasts like HM oolongs...and the possibilities expand even further~

Definitely try a range from a few different vendors - there are plenty of differences between Dong Dings all around. It certainly won't be as obvious as the differences in Dancongs like you had mentioned, but even within "Dong Ding" alone....the waters go pretty deep!

[Bok]

Speaking of waters, just had a old school
Hongshui Oolong which is yet another, more traditional, take on dongding. Not easy to find anymore though.

[Ethan Kurland]

. Look carefully at the tightness of the roll when you examine tea before buying.

+1
Several times I told vendors not to prepare a sample once I saw, huge, hard pebbles in a scoop heading for a teapot or gaiwan. I was sure those stones of tea were doomed to spend too much time in boiling water (to open them up) and I was in for another awkward situation of someone telling me bitter tea was sweet. Unpleasant it is to wonder whether they were angry at me for being rude or for not being a sucker who would sample something he did not like and buy it anyway.

[chofmann]

Hi victoria!
I should have posted more specifics about my own experience with these teas. I am specifically talking about what is typically medium oxidized and roasted, like an old fashioned dong ding. I usually buy from Floating Leaves.
You have a good point when comparing this style to Wuyi and Dancong. The latter have more high/top notes that are going to be more obvious than texture, feel and so on.

I would try drinking side by side. Dong Ding is one of our top sellers so I've compared many side by side, and the differences are quite stark.

[cherrybomb7]

Thank you for the replies everyone. I think I have realized two things: I need to sample more and definitely taste side by side.

[cherrybomb7]

But I have just noticed more and more when it comes to the rolled style I am drinking it and I like it! But that's about it. They have a nice sweet caramel, maybe floral/fruity thing going on.

It's interesting - These are the types of DD/TW tea I tend to stay away from. FLT definitely has good Dong Dings, but they have certain styles that they prefer. Curation has pros and cons. The pros being that if you trust the tastes of the curator, the teas in their collections are generally pretty safe bets. The potential downside can be that if your tastes differ from theirs, a lot of options are closed to you. FLT doesn't really stock teas with a bit more fire to them, because having to wait for them to settle (which can take a few years sometimes) obviously isn't ideal for business. These are the teas I tend to gravitate towards, unfortunately (for me). The style is not necessarily the current popular trend in Taiwan or the West. On top of that, making these teas for a much smaller market, using processing that is labor intensive and also very risky....means that the teas aren't always that easy to just "stumble upon." Within Taiwanese circles, they can still be found here and there with some asking around. As for buying in the West, you could definitely start with Chen Huayin's Dong Dings. There are pros and cons there, as well of course. He has his backstory and popularity, but as for his own dong dings, the "options" are limited. I'd recommend trying some of his heavy roast teas from a few years back, and maybe some low-med roasts from more recently and see if you enjoy them.

I tend to prefer dong dings that are a little more generous on their oxidation level and roast. This doesn't mean that every DD that is more oxidized and more roasted is automatically better, of course...a good roast must accompany the right tea...which can at times make the search a bit of a challenge! I much prefer teas that favor mouthfeel and throat-feel/return over up-front fragrances. For me personally, there is a pretty large range of possibilities of profile that Dong Dings can offer. With different farms, processing, oxidation/roast - and even more factors than just these - there are plenty of beautiful examples of this style of tea all over the "spectrum." Add aged options on there, and different roasts like HM oolongs...and the possibilities expand even further~

Definitely try a range from a few different vendors - there are plenty of differences between Dong Dings all around. It certainly won't be as obvious as the differences in Dancongs like you had mentioned, but even within "Dong Ding" alone....the waters go pretty deep!

Where can I buy Chen Huayin teas?

[chofmann]

Where can I buy Chen Huayin teas?

If you're in the US: www.leafygreentea.com (ships from US. Full disclosure - my wife is the founder of Leafy Green).

If you're outside of the US: www.2088taiwan.com (ships from Taiwan).

[Bok]

Thank you for the replies everyone. I think I have realized two things: I need to sample more and definitely taste side by side.

For best results, use the exact same size and kind of porcelain gaiwan. If not available you can also use two identical rice bowls or similar, throw a few grams in, let infuse and cup with -ideally- a Chinese porcelain soup spoon. That is how teas are sampled professionally in many places and it is very easy to set up and improvise without expensive gear.

Once you know what you like pass to the teapot of your choosing to further adjust to your taste preference

[debunix]

These cheap little gaiwans are perfect for comparative tastings, used for infusing and for drinking:

[S_B]

Where can I buy Chen Huayin teas?

On the topic of Chen oolong, I can only speak from personal experience but if you are outside the US, I highly recommend directly buying from Chen. It is much fresher that way, giving you a much better example of the intended product. It tends to come completely vacuum sealed in smaller portioned bags. I also find his packaging very aesthetically pleasing. That doesn't speak to the product at all, but I appreciate the simplicity of his packaging. That said, if ordering from Chen please be aware that receiving the wrong tea is not unheard of. I have had it happen to me personally, and know others that have experienced the same thing. It isn't a lost in translation issue, either - beyond that, I don't know the details of his situation so I won't speak further to that point.

There have been some other vendors mentioned that seem to have decent oolongs as well! I would recommend slowly trying a few offerings from here and there, and see what oolongs really stick with you! Best of luck on your roasted oolong journey!