Yixing

[Bok]

Bok

I am more careful about what I read that's all. These two pots do not look off to me, but if you think that they are fake... Maybe you have been right and there is no F1 pot without a makers mark.

You misunderstood, there are pots without mark, but it’s rare. No idea if the pot above is real or fake.

[Bok]

If the second pot is not a 60's pot, it's another reminder to be more careful about what vendors say... I did not think that this would be a shady or inexperienced vendor because you mentioned him in the F1 vendors thread.

Well, he’s got a reputation… certainly experienced.

[steanze]

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steanze

Yes, it has a ball filter. And I think it's 70's for this reason... but this topic seems to be controversial. I have read some posts saying that ball filters have existed before the 70's. So I don't know for sure.

This is another one without any seal. Even looks similar to the first one.

https://thechineseteashop.com/collectio ... ese-teapot

Yes, this one looks off to me as well, both clay and workmanship don't look right for the period. Imo these are likely post-1990s replicas. I would need to see pictures of under the lid and of the interior to be more confident.

[mbanu]

Not sure if this is the correct thread, but I am a little curious -- who were the original buyers of Yixing teapots in the 1960s? Maybe an odd question, but if I understand correctly, trade relations were not so good between Taiwan and the People's Republic back then, and there was a trade embargo in the U.S. Were they heading to Japan? Thailand? Singapore? Tourists generally want pots that are more visually interesting, so I could see maybe some of those being bought as souvenirs from various events, but what about the plain pots? Were these all pots that spent the better part of their life inside China?

[Mark-S]

@Bok @steanze

Thanks, so I won't use his pots as a reference anymore.

@mbanu

Interesting question. I'd guess that they were ordered by local tea houses.

[DailyTX]

@mbanu
I heard a version of the story but not sure if it’s true. Like @Mark-S said, they where order by tea houses. Tea was expensive back in the days, so people could buy those pots for a few yuans or pots where often given as a gift when someone buy tea.

[wave_code]

a brief thought/question... there is a lot of emphasis I see put on things like ore authenticity, hand vs machine processing, old clay stock or aging clay, so on... but I feel I don't see so much about firing. since that seems to also have made a lot of vintage pots also behave the way they do, if those characteristics tend to be desirable and it takes more than just the properties of the clay itself is there any effort or emphasis on recreating similar firing situations too and we just don't hear about it? for example intentionally low-firing pots.

[Youzi]

a brief thought/question... there is a lot of emphasis I see put on things like ore authenticity, hand vs machine processing, old clay stock or aging clay, so on... but I feel I don't see so much about firing. since that seems to also have made a lot of vintage pots also behave the way they do, if those characteristics tend to be desirable and it takes more than just the properties of the clay itself is there any effort or emphasis on recreating similar firing situations too and we just don't hear about it? for example intentionally low-firing pots.

Depends on what you want to achieve. If your goal is to replicate the clay effect on the tea, then based on the material, the firing determines the porosity of the teapot.

For example the more iron in the teapot the lower the firing temperature needed to reach the same porosity. The more aluminum in the base material, the higher the firing has to be to reach the same porosity. That's why it's a common thought, that Duanni and Lüni is more muting, more porous, because usually they were underfired compared to other clay teapots, and thus had a higher porosity.

Firing depends on the temperature and time, kinda like baking you can get to the same result in two ways, though the color might be different.

[Andrew S]

I assume that there was much more variability in the firing of antique teapots, and that 'commoner' pots were more likely to be under-fired (or sometimes over-fired).

There was also slow dragon kiln firing for antique pots, and I'm not sure if there are any Yixing potters who use dragon kilns these days.

But I doubt that intentionally under-firing a pot would be sufficient on its own to recreate the effect of antique pots; you'd probably just end up with an overly muting modern pot (and customers who are afraid that it will leach chemicals into their tea). You'd probably have to re-create the entire antique process of firing (rather than just setting a modern kiln to a lower temperature). And I'm not sure if there's much of a market for modern pots that try to re-create antique pot methods; presumably, most customers in China just want a good-looking and well-made pot.

I'm curious about the effect of firing methods on the character of teapots. Has anyone looked at the effect on flavour and porosity of modern double-firing versus single-firing? Or the effect of slow dragon kiln firing (including the effect on flavour of 'black bones' teapots versus normal teapots)? Or the effect of yao bian teapots on flavour?

It's probably too complex a topic to be able to draw any accurate generalisations, but I'd like to learn what I can, both in terms of the science involved, and in terms of people's experience.

Andrew

[Youzi]

I assume that there was much more variability in the firing of antique teapots, and that 'commoner' pots were more likely to be under-fired (or sometimes over-fired).

There was also slow dragon kiln firing for antique pots, and I'm not sure if there are any Yixing potters who use dragon kilns these days.

But I doubt that intentionally under-firing a pot would be sufficient on its own to recreate the effect of antique pots; you'd probably just end up with an overly muting modern pot (and customers who are afraid that it will leach chemicals into their tea). You'd probably have to re-create the entire antique process of firing (rather than just setting a modern kiln to a lower temperature). And I'm not sure if there's much of a market for modern pots that try to re-create antique pot methods; presumably, most customers in China just want a good-looking and well-made pot.

I'm curious about the effect of firing methods on the character of teapots. Has anyone looked at the effect on flavour and porosity of modern double-firing versus single-firing? Or the effect of slow dragon kiln firing (including the effect on flavour of 'black bones' teapots versus normal teapots)? Or the effect of yao bian teapots on flavour?

It's probably too complex a topic to be able to draw any accurate generalisations, but I'd like to learn what I can, both in terms of the science involved, and in terms of people's experience.

Andrew

Based on my test, what only matters is the final porosity of the clay. However much more important than that is the heat properties of the teapot. Most Yixing pots are impervious to water and thus tea too. So really the only thing that matters is the porosity on clay surface on the inside. It doesn't matter what the teapot is like in the middle and the outside, since your tea never gets there.

[Mark-S]

There was also slow dragon kiln firing for antique pots, and I'm not sure if there are any Yixing potters who use dragon kilns these days.

Some potters are still using dragon kilns. And I think it's getting more popular again.

So really the only thing that matters is the porosity on clay surface on the inside. It doesn't matter what the teapot is like in the middle and the outside, since your tea never gets there.

Good point.

[Chadrinkincat]

Bok steanze

Thanks, so I won't use his pots as a reference anymore.

I doubt this pot is F1.
Yea I wouldn’t use his pots or tea as reference. He has a mixed reputation on both.

[olivierd]

Not sure if this is the correct thread, but I am a little curious -- who were the original buyers of Yixing teapots in the 1960s? Maybe an odd question, but if I understand correctly, trade relations were not so good between Taiwan and the People's Republic back then, and there was a trade embargo in the U.S. Were they heading to Japan? Thailand? Singapore? Tourists generally want pots that are more visually interesting, so I could see maybe some of those being bought as souvenirs from various events, but what about the plain pots? Were these all pots that spent the better part of their life inside China?

It might not reply directly your question, but according to Chilin Lu documentation, during the 70s the pots were wholesaled by 4 major importers in HK to be re-sold in Taiwan, Japan and other countries. So I would speculate that the same was also happening in the 60s.

[Mark-S]

Yea I wouldn’t use his pots or tea as reference. He has a mixed reputation on both.

That's good to know. Thank you

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I'm wondering if this lid is the original. What do you think? Unfortunately, I could not find an identical pot on Facebook... but I think that this is a F1 pot. Would it be worth to send the lid in for professional repair with kintsugi?

Sorry for the blurry pics. I've got no tripod here.

[Bok]

I'm wondering if this lid is the original. What do you think? Unfortunately, I could not find an identical pot on Facebook... but I think that this is a F1 pot. Would it be worth to send the lid in for professional repair with kintsugi?

You guessed right, not the original lid. Usually that kind of lid goes on sort of tallish pots, let me see if I can find a reference... the body is of a Han Gentleman pot. @OCTO will know more if this is an authentic one. With that stamp it should actually be pre-factory if I am not mistaken, ROC maybe, or fake? Can not say for sure, not my expertise this shape...