Disappointment with a recent purchase

[.m.]

I agree with pedant and others, a bigger hole is not gonna be worse than a small one. What i wanted to say is that past certain size there is no additional benefit. The conical design of the hole in the lid knob is, i think, partly esthetical partly functional: if you want to have the visible hole as small as possible, than this is a good way of doing it.

In case of a spout it is a different thing. I think the spout is intentionally made narrow and conical in order to create fast and tight pour in a nice stream. I'm not sure how much this is a matter of esthetics and how much it is meant to aerate the tea, but it is definitely intentional, otherwise they could just make the spouts a bit larger. On the other hand, with japanese pots the idea is, I think, for the flow to be very soft with as little obstruction and the spouts tend to be larger.

[.m.]

something else though: a larger airhole (for sure more than 1mm) is needed if you care about it getting clogged with water. this doesn't matter during pouring since the pressure difference unclogs it, but it does matter on some pots when you put the lid on after filling with water. if the hole's clogged, water gets pushed out of the pot when you put it on.
some of my (modern) pots have a large lid airhole, and i appreciate this feature.

Yes, this is a good point. I hate that when putting the lid on pushes water out of the pot.

[ShuShu]

liquid flowrate increases with increasing P_in and decreasing P_out.


increasing lid hole size is only going to help up to the point where the pressure can fully equalize to atmospheric pressure inside the pot while you pour.
making the hole smaller than that will always make it pour slower, and making it bigger will never make it pour faster (or slower for that matter).

Thanks Pedant!
So the reason why making the lid hole larger has thus far improved the pour is probably b/c air pressure inside was lower than 1 atm right?
I wonder how does the pour look like when it is equal to 1 atm and maybe I’m just way behind it. Is there a way to know whether air pressure is 1atm?

And the other way to improve the pour is by decreasing pressure at the spout - trying to make it bigger - is there a limit to this too? Like a max point?

[Atlas]

I agree with pedant and others, a bigger hole is not gonna be worse than a small one.

Not necessarily, an oversized lid hole (with respect to the spout) may be prone to "glugging", which results in an unsteady flow.

It's not a feat of high-tech science, but there is a certain intent/art to it.

[pedant]

So the reason why making the lid hole larger has thus far improved the pour is probably b/c air pressure inside was lower than 1 atm right?

this is really a long, overly drawn out explanation, but maybe someone will enjoy the blow-by-blow:

yeah, if making the lid hole bigger improved pour time for your pot, that means the pressure inside the pot while pouring was less than atmospheric pressure (P_atm). at sea level, this is about 1atm.

the air inside the pot pushes down on the liquid with pressure P_in. more pressure, more pushing, faster flow out of the pot.

the pressure starts off at P_in = P_atm, but as you start pouring, the air volume inside the pot increases as the liquid leaves.
pressure is air molecules bouncing around and colliding with stuff (objects/walls they're next to).
so if the space is less concentrated/crowded with air molecules, fewer of them will be around to bump/collide, and so there is less pressure.
i.e. P_in decreases because the air in the pot is thinned out.

with the air outside the pot at a higher pressure than inside, it pushes its way in against the interior air (which is pushing 'less hard') through the lid hole or gaps between lid and body. this progresses until the pressure equalizes.

even though air is pretty thin (compared to water or something), it still encounters resistance when trying to flow through a hole or a pipe.
the smaller the hole, the more resistance. think of trying to breathe through a coffee stirrer straw.

with enough resistance, air can't flow into the pot fast enough to completely equalize while you pour. and so if you say that P_atm is the max pressure you could ever get in the pot, P_in equal to anything less than that means your pour speed could be better.

notice how i didn't say 'suck' or 'pull' anywhere in here. it's convenient to use those words when you talk about vacuums, but in reality, that's not what's happening. it's all about pressure, and pressure means pushing. things don't get pulled by vacuum (more accurately: low pressure). instead, they get pushed around by whatever's pushing hardest (which is not the vacuum).

I wonder how does the pour look like when it is equal to 1 atm and maybe I’m just way behind it.

i don't have a good answer for you. the shape of the teapot makes it inconvenient to easily test. if you take the lid off for a really big opening, a bunch of water will spill out of there too. you could make some kind of L-shaped tube i guess and press it into where the lid would go (and have the other end of the tube pointing up).

Is there a way to know whether air pressure is 1atm?

no great ways. you could fit the pot with a pressure gauge. also, you know it's at P_atm when a bigger hole doesn't make it pour faster.

maybe tomorrow i'll do an experiment to measure the ideal lid hole size though for some kind of test 'teapot'.

And the other way to improve the pour is by decreasing pressure at the spout - trying to make it bigger - is there a limit to this too? Like a max point?

making the spout bigger will make it pour faster, but it's because basically a bigger opening resists flow less.
bigger spout doesn't change the air pressure there.
the pressure will always be P_atm. it's open air by the spout tip.

there are secret techniques that real gongfu masters will do when no one's around. they will get you to the legendary 1-2s pour:
you could decrease the pressure at the spout tip by putting your mouth there and sucking. then gravity (pulling down) and air pressure (P_in) inside the pot (pushing down) move the liquid out of the pot faster due to less opposition at the spout tip.
you could also increase pour rate by putting your mouth on the lid knob and blowing into the pot while pouring (making P_in > P_atm).

[ShuShu]

So the latest news about this is that the seller is now marking these pots' pour speed as "8 to 12 seconds" while it was 6+/- seconds when I purchased it...
Oh, and I recieved a nice email suggesting I should be more flexible (it somehow corresponds to a note the seller now added - see below).
I'm not the kind of person who demands the best customer service, but all this is kinda lame...

*the new message: "The slight difference in pouring time does not affect the experience of making tea. We need to be flexible and make good use of it according to different situation. We suggest that you may adjust tea amount, water injection rate, timing of water injection, steeping time and every brew interim time to better suit your needs. If there is a strict requirement on pouring time, Gaiwan would be a better choice."

[Bok]

So the latest news about this is that the seller is now marking these pots' pour speed as "8 to 12 seconds" while it was 6+/- seconds when I purchased it...
Oh, and I recieved a nice email suggesting I should be more flexible (it somehow corresponds to a note the seller now added - see below).
I'm not the kind of person who demands the best customer service, but all this is kinda lame...

*the new message: "The slight difference in pouring time does not affect the experience of making tea. We need to be flexible and make good use of it according to different situation. We suggest that you may adjust tea amount, water injection rate, timing of water injection, steeping time and every brew interim time to better suit your needs. If there is a strict requirement on pouring time, Gaiwan would be a better choice."

I agree, kind of lazy reply... either something pours in 6 seconds or it does not. If you can not provide accurate information just do not put any.

[steanze]

So the latest news about this is that the seller is now marking these pots' pour speed as "8 to 12 seconds" while it was 6+/- seconds when I purchased it...
Oh, and I recieved a nice email suggesting I should be more flexible (it somehow corresponds to a note the seller now added - see below).
I'm not the kind of person who demands the best customer service, but all this is kinda lame...

*the new message: "The slight difference in pouring time does not affect the experience of making tea. We need to be flexible and make good use of it according to different situation. We suggest that you may adjust tea amount, water injection rate, timing of water injection, steeping time and every brew interim time to better suit your needs. If there is a strict requirement on pouring time, Gaiwan would be a better choice."

Blaming the customer for a screwup of the seller is pretty lame. +1 on if you put incorrect information about the product you're selling you have to honor it (+/- a reasonable, inconsequential difference).

Plus the website says, on return and exchange "We taste all teas and make a point to check every tea pot or tea ware. "

[.m.]

Sorry to say, but I actually find the reply reasonable. I don't read it as blaming the customer at all. Either one returns the pot and the seller reimburses it (including shipping since it is their mistake), or one keeps it and "make good use of it". I'm not sure what else should the seller do. Except maybe formulate the response with some extra politeness, but that differs from one culture to another, and can be sometimes a bit tricky in a foreign language.

[steanze]

Sorry to say, but I actually find the reply reasonable. I don't read it as blaming the customer at all. Either one returns the pot and the seller reimburses it (including shipping since it is their mistake), or one keeps it and "make good use of it". I'm not sure what else should the seller do. Except maybe formulate the response with some extra politeness, but that differs from one culture to another, and can be sometimes a bit tricky in a foreign language.

I don't think the seller offered to accept a return. If he did, I think ShuShu should return the pot. And yes, I would expect the seller to offer to return the pot. But if the customer does not want to return it, the seller has done his job.

[.m.]

I agree. I've supposed that they had offered a return, because they should have offered it.

[ShuShu]

I agree. I've supposed that they had offered a return, because they should have offered it.

There are also other options. If I were the seller I would also offer something like a gift card, for example. That seems like a fair and respectableble way to compensat a client for such a mistake. After all I have put time and labor into making the pour faster. Even a return comes with a cost for me

( suppose that a travel agent sells you a vacation in a hotel with a swimming pool and eventually it turns out a few days before that there is no swimming pool. The fact you can enjoy your vacation and don’t won’t to cancel doesn’t mean you don’t deserve to be compensated)

[steanze]

I agree. I've supposed that they had offered a return, because they should have offered it.

There are also other options. If I were the seller I would also offer something like a gift card, for example. That seems like a fair and respectableble way to compensat a client for such a mistake. After all I have put time and labor into making the pour faster. Even a return comes with a cost for me

( suppose that a travel agent sells you a vacation in a hotel with a swimming pool and eventually it turns out a few days before that there is no swimming pool. The fact you can enjoy your vacation and don’t won’t to cancel doesn’t mean you don’t deserve to be compensated)

I don't think a seller has to offer a gift card. A return is a very reasonable thing to offer, the seller could offer to cover the cost of the return shipping.

If you have already modified the pot though, I think the seller has the right to not accept the return any more. I would see a customer modification as lowering rather than increasing the value of the pot. For example, I could use a pot with slow pour for a different kind of tea, but I would not like using a pot that has been modified, for aesthetic reasons.


In my view, you could have reasonably asked to return the pot and you could have reasonably asked the seller to pay for the cost of return shipping, before you modified the pot. If you modified the pot, that means you are accepting to keep it... Note that I warned you of that in an earlier message in this thread.

[ShuShu]

I don't think a seller has to offer a gift card. A return is a very reasonable thing to offer, the seller could offer to cover the cost of the return shipping.
...
In my view, you could have reasonably asked to return the pot and you could have reasonably asked the seller to pay for the cost of return shipping before you modified the pot. If you modified the pot, that means you are accepting to keep it... Note that I warned you of that in an earlier message in this thread.

Don't get me wrong, I'm satisfied with the pot and its pour now that it is "fixed". I was just unsatisfied with the general attitude of the seller.
However, I disagree that offering a free return doesn't leave me worse off. The whole order-ship-return process is a project that has its costs in time and disappointment that are also meaningful.

[steanze]

Don't get me wrong, I'm satisfied with the pot and its pour now that it is "fixed". I was just unsatisfied with the general attitude of the seller.
However, I disagree that offering a free return doesn't leave me worse off. The whole order-ship-return process is a project that has its costs in time and disappointment that are also meaningful.

True, but that's the cost of doing business