Yixing

[OCTO]

@Balthazar

That’s not odd at all. It’s good you have found what works for you!

Cheers!!

[TeaTotaling]

steanze Nice! How long has the pot you experimented with been in use?

About 10 years

Must be a special pot!

Well, I think that answers the question, case closed.

[pantry]

@OCTO Thank you for sharing the insight from collectors' perspectives! It's very interesting to see what they pay attentions to.

For me, it usually goes by feels. I recently passed on a teapot with calligraphy carving just because one character seems a little unharmonious to me. The calligrapher is famous, so I'm sure he knows better than I do. But in the end, I would be the one staring at the teapot not the calligrapher

Speaking of which, @Mark-S, I know it's difficult to discern a language you don't know, but it might be worthwhile to familiarize yourself with Chinese calligraphy if you are going to purchase more teapots with it. While I don't know much at all about old pots, I can tell a bad handwriting when I blink through one. Of course, there probably exist potters with bad handwriting/carving in every era

@Balthazar Your comment about people spending disproportionate amount on tea wares reminds me of this interview of Zhou Yu, where he lamented the focus (for some) that had shifted to extravagant tea wares.

[Mark-S]

Speaking of which, Mark-S, I know it's difficult to discern a language you don't know, but it might be worthwhile to familiarize yourself with Chinese calligraphy if you are going to purchase more teapots with it. While I don't know much at all about old pots, I can tell a bad handwriting when I blink through one. Of course, there probably exist potters with bad handwriting/carving in every era

I'll try to do that, and hopefully, I'll find some information about the different methods they use to engrave the characters (bamboo/wood, metal, laser).

[TeaTotaling]

Regarding the teaware vs tea leaf priority discussion. My mindset has been to find high quality teaware that complements high quality tea. I have no intention of having more teaware than I will actively use in regular rotation. I might not know of all those low-key, old-school vendors, but I have certainly tried a few curators who pay mind to clean tea. Personally, I definitely have not skimped out on the leaf side of the tea ensemble. Honestly, for me, I don’t see the point of having high quality wares without something good to put in it. I want to drink something pure and tasty!

I second @Balthazar’s priority of water, leaf, clay. In that order, makes perfect sense to me. Clay was actually the last piece of the puzzle for me starting off. It followed the above sequence, looking back almost a year. Truth, logic, and common sense

[steanze]

Balthazar

I agree with you 100%. I started with tea that cost €3/100g (50% discount price), and now I am using teas that cost €20-€60/100g. It's a huuuge improvement. You cannot get this improvement through teaware. What I meant with "clay quality" was mainly that it has to be clay without any harmful chemicals and with a nice look/feel and sufficient for making good tea. I use filtered water for my tea right now, but I have not experimented much with different waters to be honest.

To explain my priorities better: I'd rather drink cheap tea (without harmful stuff in it) than poison myself with bad clay. Of course tea quality is very important to me too.

One reason you are getting negative responses is that you have a dismissive attitude towards the inputs of people who have more experience than you and are trying to help you to learn.

We can point at one detail or another, but what I am trying to say is that in my view you need to change your approach to learning about Yixing teapots. I will make a few suggestions below, you can choose which ones you find useful.

First, learning about Yixing teapots is not just about learning a checklist of details to look at. For your dragon pot, there were differences on the handle decoration, but for another pot, it will be something else somewhere else. It can be the way the handle bends, or the shape of the lid knob, or the texture of the clay. What looks right and what looks wrong will depend on the period and the style of the pot - so one detail that looks "right" for one pot, might be "wrong" for another. This is why the people I have learned from usually avoided singling out a specific detail that's right or wrong - because learning is about developing one's eye, and the best way to do that is to see many examples of pots that are right and wrong, and train yourself to discover what are the differences. Sure it's harder that way than if someone points at one specific detail to look at. But that effort is needed to train the way you look at teapots. Sometimes, when you advance to more difficult teapots, it will be hard to find someone who can tell you about the details in some rarer cases, and you need to teach yourself. For example, some time ago I was noticing some similarity of some details of the lids of teapots in early Qing (Kangxi period) and in Ming. If you don't train your eye, you won't be able to teach yourself and to go beyond what you were told.

Second, as a beginner, I think it is helpful to have one or two teapots that you are more confident about coming from a reputable source. Sure - they might be overpriced, but they are not just for drinking, they are learning tools. Then, after handling a few teapots that are "right", it becomes easier to recognize teapots from the period from pictures.

Third, I would suggest to invest an amount of resources and buy a number of teapots that is proportional to the amount of experience you have. My advice at your stage of experience would be to buy a bit less, and observe a bit more. A teapot like the last duanni pot you showed should be ruled out fairly quickly, as @Chadrinkincat mentioned. It happens to buy some tuition pots - even to the best of us - but by adjusting the amount of purchases to the experience level, you could end up paying a bit less tuition.

Fourth - and this is a comment that's a bit of an example of dismissing others' input - when I mentioned that the "awesome" pot was not that awesome, you assumed that I disliked all decorated pots. I do like decorated pots, but there are different levels of decorated pots. That kind of round "squirrels and grapes" 1980s pot was made in fairly large numbers by F1, and if you look closely at the way the squirrels are made, the details of the leaves, and the overall nuances, you can see that the craftsmanship is not very refined. The craftsman is somewhat known, but it is not one of the most famous of his time, and I suspect he made a quite large number of pots with this design: it looks like he did not spend a lot of time on polishing the details. So if someone makes an observation like this, in my view you can learn more if you ask questions like "why do you think this pot is not so awesome?" instead of making assumptions about other people's preferences.

I hope you find some of these thoughts helpful - all the best for your collection!

[OCTO]

One reason you are getting negative responses is that you have a dismissive attitude towards the inputs of people who have more experience than you and are trying to help you to learn.

We can point at one detail or another, but what I am trying to say is that in my view you need to change your approach to learning about Yixing teapots. I will make a few suggestions below, you can choose which ones you find useful.

First, learning about Yixing teapots is not just about learning a checklist of details to look at. For your dragon pot, there were differences on the handle decoration, but for another pot, it will be something else somewhere else. It can be the way the handle bends, or the shape of the lid knob, or the texture of the clay. What looks right and what looks wrong will depend on the period and the style of the pot - so one detail that looks "right" for one pot, might be "wrong" for another. This is why the people I have learned from usually avoided singling out a specific detail that's right or wrong - because learning is about developing one's eye, and the best way to do that is to see many examples of pots that are right and wrong, and train yourself to discover what are the differences. Sure it's harder that way than if someone points at one specific detail to look at. But that effort is needed to train the way you look at teapots. Sometimes, when you advance to more difficult teapots, it will be hard to find someone who can tell you about the details in some rarer cases, and you need to teach yourself. For example, some time ago I was noticing some similarity of some details of the lids of teapots in early Qing (Kangxi period) and in Ming. If you don't train your eye, you won't be able to teach yourself and to go beyond what you were told.

Second, as a beginner, I think it is helpful to have one or two teapots that you are more confident about coming from a reputable source. Sure - they might be overpriced, but they are not just for drinking, they are learning tools. Then, after handling a few teapots that are "right", it becomes easier to recognize teapots from the period from pictures.

Third, I would suggest to invest an amount of resources and buy a number of teapots that is proportional to the amount of experience you have. My advice at your stage of experience would be to buy a bit less, and observe a bit more. A teapot like the last duanni pot you showed should be ruled out fairly quickly, as Chadrinkincat mentioned. It happens to buy some tuition pots - even to the best of us - but by adjusting the amount of purchases to the experience level, you could end up paying a bit less tuition.

Fourth - and this is a comment that's a bit of an example of dismissing others' input - when I mentioned that the "awesome" pot was not that awesome, you assumed that I disliked all decorated pots. I do like decorated pots, but there are different levels of decorated pots. That kind of round "squirrels and grapes" 1980s pot was made in fairly large numbers by F1, and if you look closely at the way the squirrels are made, the details of the leaves, and the overall nuances, you can see that the craftsmanship is not very refined. The craftsman is somewhat known, but it is not one of the most famous of his time, and I suspect he made a quite large number of pots with this design: it looks like he did not spend a lot of time on polishing the details. So if someone makes an observation like this, in my view you can learn more if you ask questions like "why do you think this pot is not so awesome?" instead of making assumptions about other people's preferences.

I hope you find some of these thoughts helpful - all the best for your collection!

Sensei has spoken!

@steanze +1 +1 +1

[Mark-S]

@steanze

Thanks for your comment. As I already said, I'll try to be more aware about the details and save some money for a pot of a reputable seller now instead of buying more pots. But this takes time... I can't immediately spend this much money on a pot. That's more than I have paid for my whole collection.

However, as you can see, we have a very different opinion about what is bad/good/awesome. For example, in your opinion this $$$$ ZAG pot is not awesome at all but for me it is. That's most likely because you've been collecting pots for a long time, and you only consider even more expensive pots awesome. It's totally fine if that's your opinion, but I don't have these uptown tastes (yet). I also don't think that my F1 pots are tuition pots... only most of the non F1 pots are. Yes, my F1 pots are far from being perfect, but they meet my demands. At least for now. Maybe, if I got the teapot from the reputable seller my demands will change... or not... who knows.

I hope it's still okay if I show you my pots now and then. For example, I wanted to answer the question if I like the small F1 shui ping with the fixed air hole. I could not answer this question back then but in two to three weeks I'll have done about 200-250 infusions with this pot and enough experience with it. I won't however start a discussion about the clay, because everyone knows how this would end.

[steanze]

Thanks for your comment.

You are welcome!

I hope it's still okay if I show you my pots now and then.

Of course! Nothing wrong with showing pots this is the point of this thread. Also I don't make the rules about what posts are allowed or not

However, as you can see, we have a very different opinion about what is bad/good/awesome. For example, in your opinion this $$$$ ZAG pot is not awesome at all but for me it is. That's most likely because you've been collecting pots for a long time, and you only consider even more expensive pots awesome. It's totally fine if that's your opinion, but I don't have these uptown tastes (yet).

Yes, we have different opinions. What I am saying is that you might have the opinion you currently have because you don't have as much experience with more finely made ornate pots, and that you might have something to learn from my opinion - it might help you realize what else is out there importantly, it is not about how expensive the pot is, but about what it is. There are some ridiculously expensive pots that are also aesthetically not refined.

[steanze]

Sensei has spoken!

steanze +1 +1 +1

[steanze]

steanze

Thanks for your comment. As I already said, I'll try to be more aware about the details and save some money for a pot of a reputable seller now instead of buying more pots. But this takes time... I can't immediately spend this much money on a pot. That's more than I have paid for my whole collection.

Yes, I definitely do not want to push you to spend more. Just having 1 or 2 F1 teapots is already very helpful. If you were lucky enough to get a couple of confirmed F1 teapots, that is already a very good start. You can focus on understanding F1 teapots for some time first, I studied F1 teapots for quite some time before I tried understanding older teapots.
It is important that you really challenge yourself and observe carefully, and don't convince of yourself of rules that could be incorrect. For example, earlier you mentioned that the duanni pot had handmade calligraphy because it had "lines made to go straight with the calligraphy". I don't know where you learned that, but the teapots with hand carved calligraphy I have seen do not have such lines...

[pantry]

pantry
TeaTotaling

From my own experience, DuanNi has always been a very versatile and yet very unpredictable clay. I have experienced DuanNi staining black and giving me a scare of my life... hahahaha...

On the other hand, DuanNi have given me many good experiences with Puerh, Oolong and some green tea as well. Tu-hei or vomit-black as Bok mentioned earlier will appear on your put as blotches of black stains. It's almost impossible to remove them completely. So far my success with DuanNi / Shou Puerh are when teas are not left steeping or sitting idle in the pot for extended periods of time. Rinse the pot clean immediate after your tea session.

Do explore with different types of tea. Many avoid trying with darker coloured tea due to the ugly stain it leaves behind. But no harm "dedicating one" to tame the curious cat tugging at the back of our mind... hahaha....

Cheers!

My duanni pot is starting to perform now. You’re absolutely right about its unpredictability! It’s been great with green tea almost from the get go. Acceptable and interesting with young sheng puerh (it alters the tea profile. Not better, not worse—just different). Works well with semi-aged puerh, and terribly with white tea! I heard it should go well with red tea, which I have yet tried. Meanwhile, I got another aged duanni (slightly lower grade) to experiment with, and it performs differently from the first pot! I understand there are many other factors such as thickness, shape, firing, etc. Nonetheless, it’s been fun to experiment, compare, and ponder

[steanze]

With the danger of sounding like an oddball, if I am brewing tea alone (which I am 99% of the time) one thing I like to do is to touch, gently stroke and/or hold around the body of the teapot while it's brewing. The heat transfer from the clay to my skin has a particularly satisfying, radiant and calming feel that I do not get (to the same degree) from porcelain or glass. This has become an integrated part of my solo sessions, particularly towards the later steeps when the steeping time is longer. So much so that I sometimes find myself grabbing for a yixing pot even when brewing a tea for which I do not really have a suitable pot in my collection (dancong, and to some extent yancha), where a porcelain gaiwan might yield a "better" result in terms of flavor and aroma.

You sound like a fun group of drinkers, btw. I imagine such real-life exchanges of opinions about tea (while sharing the same tea) are less conducive to misunderstanding than online discussions are

Not odd

[steanze]

pantry
TeaTotaling

From my own experience, DuanNi has always been a very versatile and yet very unpredictable clay. I have experienced DuanNi staining black and giving me a scare of my life... hahahaha...

On the other hand, DuanNi have given me many good experiences with Puerh, Oolong and some green tea as well. Tu-hei or vomit-black as Bok mentioned earlier will appear on your put as blotches of black stains. It's almost impossible to remove them completely. So far my success with DuanNi / Shou Puerh are when teas are not left steeping or sitting idle in the pot for extended periods of time. Rinse the pot clean immediate after your tea session.

Do explore with different types of tea. Many avoid trying with darker coloured tea due to the ugly stain it leaves behind. But no harm "dedicating one" to tame the curious cat tugging at the back of our mind... hahaha....

Cheers!

Yes, what @OCTO said, duanni is a very interesting and complicated clay. There are also many different types of duanni.

[Mark-S]

Of course! Nothing wrong with showing pots this is the point of this thread. Also I don't make the rules about what posts are allowed or not

Good, haha I don't want to annoy you with mediocre pots. There won't be many new pots this year however, but I'll post my experiences with the pots I already got.

What I am saying is that you might have the opinion you currently have because you don't have as much experience with more finely made ornate pots, and that you might have something to learn from my opinion - it might help you realize what else is out there

That's absolutely right. I am still learning and my opinion about Yixing pots changes constantly. There are some pots I considered to be of good quality a couple of month ago. Now I know that the quality is not that good and that they were likely made in the 90's.

For example, earlier you mentioned that the duanni pot had handmade calligraphy because it had "lines made to go straight with the calligraphy". I don't know where you learned that, but the teapots with hand carved calligraphy I have seen do not have such lines...

Everything I learn about tea / Yixing is from teaforum, teachat, Facebook and many tea blogs (most of them in English). Unfortunately, they sometimes tell you bullshit. For example, I boiled a teapot in tea (without the leaves) once to boost the patina development. Stupid idea, I know, and it did not work at all but it was mentioned multiple times. Regarding the calligraphy: I also have a F1 pot with calligraphy and without those lines. But I read somewhere that these characters on this pot would be multiple poems and that artists sometimes use these lines as a guidance. The author also said that calligraphy on similar pots is often made with lasers today (therefore no lines) and that the depth of the carvings indicate what tool was used. And that carvings often look more fluently on F1 pots because the same designs were used over and over again. I simply don't know what's correct and what isn't. It seemed to be plausible, but now I am not so sure if they are even poems, because I don't speak Chinese.