Yixing

[faj]

Sad but true. I have collector friends who are paying USD100,000 just for a pot by a grandmaster.

Art always has been a way to soak up excess capital available to rich people. Decadent price for art is associated with societies with a lot of wealth inequality on the one hand, and too few good investment opportunities on the other hand, as rich people cannot invest in creating goods and services the mass cannot afford. Of course, there is a status aspect that goes with it too. But mostly, spiraling art prices is a way to capture idle accumulating capital when taxes and economic opportunity fail to achieve it, because, at some point, excess money has to go somewhere.

[alejandro2high]

I posed this question on the Facebook Gong Fu Cha group, and I figured I should ask it here too.

Has anybody ever done a comparison between old factory 1 pots and good quality modern pots (Yinchen, Global Tea Hut, Chanting Pines, Mud&Leaves)? I hear quite often that older pots are always better than modern pots. Of course mass produced modern pots are not great, but what about the quality modern pots; how do they stand up to 70's and maybe even 60's F1 pots? How much of the love and allure of vintage and antique pots is purely based on the romanticization of old things? I own both modern and vintage pots, but I'm curious to hear what y'all think.

I chimed in that:

The building and firing of modern clays is hands down better than vintage and antique pots. In antique pots and porcelain the firing defects are common and numerous; even in pottery that is deemed in good condition these defects are expected.

When it comes to ore, several studios have clays that were mined in pre-2000 days, and if you don't mind paying a premium, or you have a connection in a studio, then getting some of this clay is absolutely possible.

As far as the processing of ores, there is nothing keeping studios from using traditional methods to process their ores in modern times. It's not as if once modern methods were invented the traditional techniques were lost or abandoned completely. For instance, Yinchen Studio has some pots that are made in a traditional manner with with aged clay.

Don't get me wrong. I love old Yixing, and I will continue to spend more money than I should on F1, and antiques; however, after a long time trying to learn about zisha it seems that a lot of the knowledge that is passed down is very dogmatic.

[Bok]

I can only speak for myself and still limited experience(with my own collection): Yixing has been mass producing teapots for much longer than the factory period

I did for the longest time not get what all the fuzz was about Yixing, my experience at the time with vintage and modern ones I encountered in Taiwan was all meh compared to the Taiwanese wood fired clays I was using at the time. The clay looked boring as well, uniform and shiny. Still is.

The first real aha moment I had when I jumped deep and got a 60s Hongni. It did not make a difference from the get go, but it did a while afterwards. Markedly so. When learning more and seeing real antiques for the first time at collectors homes I was lost. I think the workmanship I’d antiques is in many cases(not all of course) much better than contemporary, all the while still being a bit organic, tiny imperfections, clay that is not uniform and has some natural faults. And the firing of those clays and processing must have had some different effect on the clay compared to contemporary. I lack the scientific explanation for it, but the result when used is different. Add the visual enjoyment and I don’t need much more reason to opt for those.

Maybe environmental reasons: already fired smoke and ash in the air 100y ago, , earth and stones already dug out, no need to do it again if those pots are perfectly good to use and still enough around

[Bok]

But are they better? Depends. Sometimes not always.

[alejandro2high]

But are they better? Depends. Sometimes not always.

This. 100%. I had a long reply, but this pretty much sums it up. I also think personal preference I think is the deciding factor. I just brought these questions up because I rarely see people question the ideas that surround zisha.

[Mark-S]

I posed this question on the Facebook Gong Fu Cha group

Could you please give me a link to this group? Thanks

A lot of western customers is no guarantee... take tea: so many really awful teas are raved an talked about, all due to lack of comparison, ignorance and/or good marketing.

I know this thread isn't about tea, but do you buy tea online? If so, where do you buy it? Would be interesting to compare it to the tea I can buy in Germany.

What's worth looking for is a 3Friend with golfball filter from the 70s era. They don't come by very often.

When you wrote this I thought that all 3 Friends pots from the 70s era would have a golfball filter. However, I bought another of these pots recently and it does not have a golfball filter. I am pretty sure it's from the green label era though. The seller told me he bought this pot more than 40 years ago and the clay looks similar to some of my pots from this era. So I wonder why you said to look for a pot with a golfball filter. Could you please explain this?

[Bok]

@Mark-S I don’t buy tea online. And I can assure you, tea in Germany is generally pretty terrible.

[Mark-S]

Mark-S I don’t buy tea online. And I can assure you, tea in Germany is generally pretty terrible.

Too bad I know, you already told me that. I buy it from a pretty expensive seller (in comparison to other teas available), so I hope it's not that bad. The tea I drink costs up to $35/100g. I could not afford more expensive ones anyway.

[Youzi]

I can only speak for myself and still limited experience(with my own collection): Yixing has been mass producing teapots for much longer than the factory period

I did for the longest time not get what all the fuzz was about Yixing, my experience at the time with vintage and modern ones I encountered in Taiwan was all meh compared to the Taiwanese wood fired clays I was using at the time. The clay looked boring as well, uniform and shiny. Still is.

The first real aha moment I had when I jumped deep and got a 60s Hongni. It did not make a difference from the get go, but it did a while afterwards. Markedly so. When learning more and seeing real antiques for the first time at collectors homes I was lost. I think the workmanship I’d antiques is in many cases(not all of course) much better than contemporary, all the while still being a bit organic, tiny imperfections, clay that is not uniform and has some natural faults. And the firing of those clays and processing must have had some different effect on the clay compared to contemporary. I lack the scientific explanation for it, but the result when used is different. Add the visual enjoyment and I don’t need much more reason to opt for those.

Maybe environmental reasons: already fired smoke and ash in the air 100y ago, , earth and stones already dug out, no need to do it again if those pots are perfectly good to use and still enough around

I'd say one of the issue with modern pots is finding traditionally processed clay, and single wood fired (covered) teapots.

Most of the modern stuff even better ones are still use the modern processing of F1.

[Victoria]

Mark-S I don’t buy tea online. And I can assure you, tea in Germany is generally pretty terrible.

Too bad I know, you already told me that. I buy it from a pretty expensive seller (in comparison to other teas available), so I hope it's not that bad. The tea I drink costs up to $35/100g. I could not afford more expensive ones anyway.

While living in Taiwan has its tea benefits there are some very reputable vendors in the EU like die Kunst des Tees out of Berlin, Kwon Ying von Beuningen sells very high quality oolong. Also, you can look through our thread Online Tea Vendors dispatching from within the EU (European Union).

[Bok]

I think price might be the issue... under 35€/100g the quality of the tea will be decreasing exponentially... good tea is already expensive in Asia, export/import/handling fees do not make it any better

[Jules_Ludwig]

under 35€/100g the quality of the tea will be decreasing exponentially

I'm relieved!

[TeaTotaling]

Anyone use 80's Duanni for Shou or Red/Black Tea? Also, anyone familiar with functionality of this style of pot?

TeaTotaling

I have a few DuanNi pots dedicated to Aged Shou Puerh and this one is one of the most successful pot till date. Successful meaning it didn't stain ugly and brewed up a very nice cup of aged shou pureh. This is 80s DuanNi.

As for functionality of the pot, I have no idea. Never a fan of this type of pot design.

Cheers!

Golden stuff!

Agree, the pot in question does not look like a practical design.

Excellent, good to know!!

As for the design, I have read pots with a taller vertical height, retain heat well. I know Shou and Red Tea benefit from good heat retention. I am just not sure Red Tea is a good fit for Duanni.

The pot itself is 110ml, and I was informed it's in great condition. The spout looks to be able to provide a clean pour as well, which is a priority. @OCTO How many ml is your lovely 80's Duanni pot?

[steanze]

I posed this question on the Facebook Gong Fu Cha group, and I figured I should ask it here too.

Has anybody ever done a comparison between old factory 1 pots and good quality modern pots (Yinchen, Global Tea Hut, Chanting Pines, Mud&Leaves)? I hear quite often that older pots are always better than modern pots. Of course mass produced modern pots are not great, but what about the quality modern pots; how do they stand up to 70's and maybe even 60's F1 pots? How much of the love and allure of vintage and antique pots is purely based on the romanticization of old things? I own both modern and vintage pots, but I'm curious to hear what y'all think.

I chimed in that:

The building and firing of modern clays is hands down better than vintage and antique pots. In antique pots and porcelain the firing defects are common and numerous; even in pottery that is deemed in good condition these defects are expected.

When it comes to ore, several studios have clays that were mined in pre-2000 days, and if you don't mind paying a premium, or you have a connection in a studio, then getting some of this clay is absolutely possible.

As far as the processing of ores, there is nothing keeping studios from using traditional methods to process their ores in modern times. It's not as if once modern methods were invented the traditional techniques were lost or abandoned completely. For instance, Yinchen Studio has some pots that are made in a traditional manner with with aged clay.

Don't get me wrong. I love old Yixing, and I will continue to spend more money than I should on F1, and antiques; however, after a long time trying to learn about zisha it seems that a lot of the knowledge that is passed down is very dogmatic.

This is a good question that requires a nuanced answer. What does it mean that a pot is "better"? What makes a pot good? Usually, when I evaluate a pot, I take into consideration several different factors:

1) Is the teapot a good tool to make tea? First of all, the clay material must be good. Second, it has to be processed and fired appropriately. Third, the size needs to be suitable for the type of tea and number of people drinking. Fourth, the workmanship needs to be functional: does it pour fast enough? Is it balanced? Is the thickness suitable for the type of tea?

2) Is the teapot aesthetically pleasing? I tend to prefer humbler pots, with simple shapes. If a pot has decorations or carvings, it needs to be really refined, otherwise it is tacky - trying to impress in an inelegant way. The clay needs to be beautiful in color and grain. I tend to prefer teapots that have individuality, if a teapot looks too perfect and machine made like a glass or a mug one could buy at a store, it makes the teapot less interesting to my eyes.

3) Does the teapot have artistic value? This is a more difficult criterion, only a few teapots do. Is the shape exceptionally balanced and elegant indicating that it is the work of a master? Does it show new aesthetic ideas that were new at the time in which it was produced?

4) Does the teapot have historical value? Is it a good representative of the period in which it was created? Does it have some properties that influenced or transformed the subsequent history of teapot making?

Having set some criteria, we can compare modern, factory 1, and antique pots along these criteria.

Criterion 1: modern pots are more consistently functional than old pots, especially antiques. Some antique pots are equally functional, but some are little bit less. However, usually clay quality is superior in most (not all) antique pots. This might not necessarily be due to differences in the raw ore, but differences in processing. More specifically, there are differences in weathering, ore grinding, kneading, additives, and firing. It is not easy to verify that a modern pot was processed with traditional methods in all respects - and in fact cases are known where such claims were not true (note that I am not speaking about Yinchen's pots here, I don't know about his pots). Generally, I prefer old pots with minor functionality issues and better clay processing, than modern pots which are exceptionally functional but with unclear clay processing.

Criterion 2: I find that many modern pots have questionable taste. There are many ornate designs that are not refined or elegant, but rather are tacky. I guess that might be driven by demand, there might be customers who are attracted by that "rococo" style. I think of that style as the intellectual equivalent of deep fried butter. At the same time, there are also beautiful modern shapes. So in terms of shape, older pots are "safer", but there are also good modern ones if one knows how to choose. In terms of the beauty of the clay, it is a bit of a similar situation. With antique pots, almost every pot has beautiful clay. A few pots have clay that's a bit less good, but even those are pretty good. For modern pots, there are some with good clay, and also many with bad clay. These could have additives, but also just be made of clay that doesn't have beautiful grain and texture. So again, modern pots can have beautiful clay, but one needs to know how to choose. Finally, a broader issue with modern pots in my eyes, is that many look impersonal - they lack individuality. For my preference, a teapot should not look like a uniformed product like a glass or a plate or a spoon. Many modern pots have this problem. However, there are handmade modern pots that show some small details of individuality and irregularity. To make a comparison with music - I can get a computer to play Chopin's waltzes with perfect accuracy. Is it going to be better than Lipatti's recording, that has a few mistakes? The answer for me is obviously not. I don't care about the few mistakes, the computer's performance is off the mark in a more fundamental way.

Criterion 3: there are teapots that have artistic value in the past and today. This is usually a difficult criterion to evaluate, it requires a lot of experience. Usually these teapots have a very high cost. But there are many teapots with a very high cost and made by "masters" that in my opinion have little artistic value. Especially today, my impression is that the official "Master" title in the Yixing industry is only partly meaningful, I find the work of some "Masters" to be artistically questionable (the works of others are very beautiful, even today).

Criterion 4: it is easier to evaluate if an antique teapot has historical value, than a modern teapot. For an antique teapot, it is easier to study other examples and understand typical characteristics of the period, and especially to evaluate whether the teapot has had an impact on the following history. There will definitely be also modern teapot that will have historical value, but it is not trivial to predict which ones...

Finally, to understand the teaware, we need to understand the people who are making it. Is the craftsman a person with not only manual talent, but the eye to see nuances, and the creativity to think of new ideas? Is the craftsman a person with a broad aesthetic education, that includes a knowledge of painting and literature, and situates their work in a broader artistic context? Some people are, other people are not, both today, and in old times.

I know this is a high bar, at least it is something to hope for.

The pots I have seen from modern sellers listed (I did not go through all their pots) don't really rise up to criteria 3 and 4. That is normal, otherwise they could cost thousands. For criteria 1 and 2, the raw ore used could be good, but it is difficult to verify traditional processing. In terms of clay quality, I haven't encountered pots that seem quite as good as 60s F1 xiao hongni and 70s F1 zini. Some of the pots can still be reasonable options. A few others are not that great, and some look like aesthetic train wrecks of epic proportions.

To sum up, I think some modern pots can be reasonable tools to make tea, and there are also some modern pots that are artistically valuable. However, the artistically valuable ones are extremely expensive and tend to be too large. The other ones often not only fail on criteria 3 and 4 (that's fine), but also tend to be inferior as tools to make tea to antique teapots because of clay processing and firing, and as aesthetically pleasing objects because of their lack of individuality. Can there be a modern pot that is functional, made of good clay processed in the traditional way, is not tacky, and has some individuality? That is, a modern pot that aces criteria 1 and 2? In principle yes, in practice, I have not seen many examples.

[alejandro2high]

@steanze

Thanks for the thoughful response. I would agree completely with what your saying. I also think that it's interesting to consider historical significance, and I agree that modern pots definitely don't fit into that category besides a few examples that aren't really known to the western public, myself included.