2019 from Wuyi Origin?

theredbaron
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Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:03 pm

carogust wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:09 am
As far as more traditional, higher roasted and possibly higher oxidation (it seems to me that high roast + low-mid oxidation is very different from high roast AND high oxidation?) teas have been popping up with vendors like tealifehk and EoT. I can't really comment more as I am not connected to the Chinese market.

One thing that I am very confused about (and deserves a thread of its own) is "traditional" processing. Most of the time it is said to be higher roasted, but on occasion I've seen mention a more medium roast being "traditional". The conflicting claims about what is traditional has lead me to believe that no single traditional processing exists and styles between different producers has always existed.
What makes me very curious is what tjkdubya calls "neo-traditional" processing. Could you comment more on that?

20 years ago we had the problem that most Yancha on the market was far too high roasted, often masking bad material. It took years before the roating taste diasppeared.
Today it seems to be the opposite - the trend of far too greenish Yancha. Which are for me quite undrinkable.

Good Yancha, if you want to call it traditional or whatever, has to be just right. And then it is for me the most complex and mysterious tea of all teas.
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Victoria
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Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:56 pm

I have been enjoying a 3rd and 4th roast boutique RouGui from WuyiOrigin obtained via a friend. They are both very good, although I think the 4th is slightly smoother and more balanced, but haven't done a side by side yet. The 3rd roast might have very subtle background plummy notes which are removed in 4th roast. The 3rd roast was done 8/17/2019, 4th very light roasted on 11/26/2019.

Steeped in Yamada Sou 80ml mayake kyusu. 6g/70ml/211f/5,8,10,12,15,25,45sec

Yamada Sou mayake 80ml 4th roast RG WO_DSC0524_sm.jpg
Yamada Sou mayake 80ml 4th roast RG WO_DSC0524_sm.jpg (491.7 KiB) Viewed 5738 times
Yamada Sou mayake 80ml 4th roast RG WO_DSC0549_sm.jpg
Yamada Sou mayake 80ml 4th roast RG WO_DSC0549_sm.jpg (459.16 KiB) Viewed 5738 times
carogust
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Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:36 am

theredbaron wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:03 pm
carogust wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:09 am
As far as more traditional, higher roasted and possibly higher oxidation (it seems to me that high roast + low-mid oxidation is very different from high roast AND high oxidation?) teas have been popping up with vendors like tealifehk and EoT. I can't really comment more as I am not connected to the Chinese market.

One thing that I am very confused about (and deserves a thread of its own) is "traditional" processing. Most of the time it is said to be higher roasted, but on occasion I've seen mention a more medium roast being "traditional". The conflicting claims about what is traditional has lead me to believe that no single traditional processing exists and styles between different producers has always existed.
What makes me very curious is what tjkdubya calls "neo-traditional" processing. Could you comment more on that?

20 years ago we had the problem that most Yancha on the market was far too high roasted, often masking bad material. It took years before the roating taste diasppeared.
Today it seems to be the opposite - the trend of far too greenish Yancha. Which are for me quite undrinkable.

Good Yancha, if you want to call it traditional or whatever, has to be just right. And then it is for me the most complex and mysterious tea of all teas.
What is "just right"? Is it a more medium or high roast? That is what I am confused about.
It also matters how they achieve the particular roast level. Is it re-roasted or just a single roast? Is it a low or high temperature one?
And there is the matter of oxidation, which is just as important as roasting.
So I think the case might just be that there has always been different styles of producing yancha. Some high roasted, some low roasted, some high oxidation and some lower oxidation.
And of course, none of this really matters. Who cares if it is traditional if the processing results in an amazing tea? And I do know what you mean by "complex and mysterious" having gotten acquainted with a yancha that is like that.
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Bok
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Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:00 am

carogust wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:36 am
And there is the matter of oxidation, which is just as important as roasting.
Oxidation is more important than roasting, by far. If the oxidation is not done right the roast can't save it. Oxidation done right can make roasting unnecessary. I had an oolong from the 1980s without any initial or intermediate roast – pure delight.
carogust wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:36 am
So I think the case might just be that there has always been different styles of producing yancha. Some high roasted, some low roasted, some high oxidation and some lower oxidation.
And of course, none of this really matters. Who cares if it is traditional if the processing results in an amazing tea?
While I agree that the end result in the cup matters, I do disagree that there have always been different producing styles. Always is a long time, but it is generally agreed by tea-historians that the little processed style of today is a recent thing. Little oxidation is a recent thing, as farmers do not want to take up the work of oxidation and roast, if they can:

– sell the green stuff at a high enough price already (market demands it, who would argue with millions of Chinese customers?)
– roasting results in overall loss (less weight)
– roasting with little or no oxidation can cover bad material

I for one, also prefer the more oxidised, roasted versions – but they are not really affordable, at least not for me and not in the quality I am used to with Taiwanese teas. Stays a rare fortunate treat... :(
carogust
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Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:10 am

@Bok Thanks for the clarification and corrections!
It is a real shame that its hard to find people making high oxidation (and high roast) oolong from more affordable material. Because I do happen to like the style as well (based on my experiences with EoTs new high oxidation + roast yancha).
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Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:19 am

carogust wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:10 am
. Because I do happen to like the style as well (based on my experiences with EoTs new high oxidation + roast yancha).
If you like those, imagine what higher mid and high grade Yancha would taste like! :mrgreen:
carogust
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Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:32 am

Bok wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:19 am
carogust wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:10 am
. Because I do happen to like the style as well (based on my experiences with EoTs new high oxidation + roast yancha).
If you like those, imagine what higher mid and high grade Yancha would taste like! :mrgreen:
The tea is already so overwhelmingly complex, full of life and personality so no, I can't really imagine :lol:
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Bok
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Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:46 am

Probably better... it’s so different that it’s difficult to go back after having tried. Just can’t afford them :(
theredbaron
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Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:15 pm

carogust wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:36 am


What is "just right"? Is it a more medium or high roast? That is what I am confused about.
It also matters how they achieve the particular roast level. Is it re-roasted or just a single roast? Is it a low or high temperature one?
And there is the matter of oxidation, which is just as important as roasting.
So I think the case might just be that there has always been different styles of producing yancha. Some high roasted, some low roasted, some high oxidation and some lower oxidation.
And of course, none of this really matters. Who cares if it is traditional if the processing results in an amazing tea? And I do know what you mean by "complex and mysterious" having gotten acquainted with a yancha that is like that.
The only reply i can think of is that you will have to try it to know it. But for that you will have to go to the tea centers in Asia. You won't get that over the web.
There were not, as far as i am aware different styles of producing Yancha. What happened was that because of the exports to the Chinese diaspora, especially SEA, Yancha was brutally roasted to survive the long journey. And people got used to that. Then, efforts were made to get back to the traditional form of roasting.
What happened now is that suddenly, since a few years, those greenish low oxidation low roast Yancha came to the market. Most vendors on the web now suddenly sell those. I have huge difficuties to drink them. I do not like them. I hope that not the same is going to happen with yancha that happened to Ti Kuan Yin - which was a very different tea before than what is known now as Ti Kuan Yin.

Another thing - those greenish Yancha will most likely not age well. Good Yancha, processed the right way, ages extremely well. Not to the extreme as Sheng Pu Erh does, but still...
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Bok
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Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:27 pm

theredbaron wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:15 pm
I hope that not the same is going to happen with yancha that happened to Ti Kuan Yin - which was a very different tea before than what is known now as Ti Kuan Yin.
At least you can still find something similar to traditional Anxi TGY in Taiwan, where luckily no one would dare to process it green :mrgreen:
carogust
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Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:56 pm

@theredbaron I don't honestly believe that you need to be in asia to drink amazing yancha. You just need to know where to look! Sure the selection might not be as great and you'll have to pay a bit of a resale premium but it doesn't seem that bad to me. As I said, the EoT yancha is supposedly traditionally roasted, oxidized and aged for 2-3 years before being sold. The roasting style is very different in that than in other yancha I've had. Considering how their gui dong keng TLH is made from top top material (mature 40 yo bushes and in one of the best locations) and handmade I bet that it is REALLY the top stuff.
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Bok
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:10 am

carogust wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:56 pm
Considering how their gui dong keng TLH is made from top top material (mature 40 yo bushes and in one of the best locations) and handmade I bet that it is REALLY the top stuff.
Don't bet on it... have you seen the official retail prices of the top Yancha stuff of this year in China? There is literally no way that that stuff makes it out of Asia, or that anyone would pay those prices in the West (with added import etc. fees).

While EoT have decent tea, it is far from being the top stuff, you would notice it with the price if it really were...
I had the luck to try a TLH which retails at 8000RMB per jin in China, so roughly 1400USD for 500g. And I can tell you there are worlds in between that and what you might find at EoT or other Western facing vendors, sorry... And that is not even the most expensive yancha.

It just doesn't make sense to import those teas, if you can even get them that is. Who would pay for it? I wouldn't/couldn't.
carogust
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:03 am

@Bok
Of course there is more expensive tea. I know that rougui from one of the jians (I think?) went for 10usd/1g a few years back? Heck maybe it still does. The point being, I doubt there is much difference in quality after a certain point.
And the price you quoted is pretty equivalent to EoTs. IDK why there is this concept that western vendors are ALWAYS ripping people off and ALWAYS have inferior tea. Lets not forget that EoT does business in china as well. (At least I think so?)
Anyways there is sadly no way to know other than to try... For now it is my only option.

Edit: I now remembered that you've had bad experiences with previous EoT Yancha. Their yancha sources have changed (because the old source started making worse tea year after year I think?). Not saying that you should try them again though.
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Bok
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:21 am

carogust wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:03 am
The point being, I doubt there is much difference in quality after a certain point.
Totally agree, but I do not think it is the point of this discussion.

carogust wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:03 am
And the price you quoted is pretty equivalent to EoTs. IDK why there is this concept that western vendors are ALWAYS ripping people off and ALWAYS have inferior tea. Lets not forget that EoT does business in china as well. (At least I think so?)
I do not think it is about ripping people off, it is more the nature of the market. In order to sell tea in the West it needs to be imported from the East, thus creating higher costs and making offering a certain quality in tea not a valid economic decision. It means the same price offered in the West in retail in China itself is quite a bit lower. Unless you have really good connections and a good nature to offer below market price and keep your own margin small.

That also has to do with the willingness of the customer to pay high prices for it.

The other part is scarcity. Again without really good and long-standing connections it is difficult to get to the good stuff… which is why generally the China based/ or with relatives there fare better in offering good quality. Twice in a year going there as so many “boutique outlets” now probably doesn’t cut it.

In the end the proof is in the cup. I can just relate to the disparity of what I occasionally tasted in Western facing shops and what tried in Asia with friends. There are exceptions, but I think Yancha is an especially difficult tea in that regard. I'd say that to name one, that Lazycat has much better value for taste.
carogust
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:34 am

I do understand your point. I don't care that much to try the ultra ultra high end, just the normal high end. That will be good enough for me. I do think that the "low-end" of high end tea is available to the west, maybe with a bit of a premium. Maybe not the best but still good enough to get a good picture, even an approximate one.
And thanks for the vendor recommendation.
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