Yixing for Yancha

[Youzi]

Hi fellow Tea Friends!

Based on your experience, what kind of Yixing teapot would you recommend for Yancha?

What clay and shape would be preferable?

I haven't really drank yancha so far, but would like to get into it, but I only drink teas which I have a teapot for already, so I have to make one first.

Thank you for your recommendations!

-Youzi

[DailyTX]

Hi fellow Tea Friends!

Based on your experience, what kind of Yixing teapot would you recommend for Yancha?

What clay and shape would be preferable?

I haven't really drank yancha so far, but would like to get into it, but I only drink teas which I have a teapot for already, so I have to make one first.

Thank you for your recommendations!

-Youzi

@Youzi
I looked into Yancha last year, and I also had similar questions as you do. So far, the information I read directed me to look into flat zisha pot that resembles a pancake. The rationale behind a flat pot has to do with room for leaves to expand during brewing process and not too tall because yancha tends to be expansive so it’s not cost effective.

[faj]

I would suggest you take a look at this topic : viewtopic.php?f=19&t=318

It shows a chart by @steanze for tea/pot pairing. For yancha, this chart would suggest a thin zhuni/hongni pot with fast pour.

[faj]

The rationale behind a flat pot has to do with room for leaves to expand during brewing process and not too tall because yancha tends to be expansive so it’s not cost effective.

I have seen many comments about the relationship between teapot shape and leaves expanding. This is a bit puzzling to me, and if anyone could shed some light, I would appreciate.

As far as I have been able to observe, tea leaves expand vertically as well as horizontally inside a teapot. Basically, the leaves will expand wherever there is water, more or less. If there is 100ml of water in a flat-shaped teapot, there is 100ml of volume for leaves to expand. If there is 100ml of water in a "tall" teapot, there is still 100ml for the leaves. Unless a teapot is shallow or narrow to a ridiculous degree, I do not see how part of the volume of water might be off-limits to the expansion of the leaves.

That does not mean I think shape is necessarily irrelevant : for instance, a flatter teapot is likely to have more water-to-air contact area and a different surface-to-volume ratio and therefore different heat dissipation properties. It is just that I cannot figure out how "more room for the leaves to expand" could be a factor.

[DailyTX]

The rationale behind a flat pot has to do with room for leaves to expand during brewing process and not too tall because yancha tends to be expansive so it’s not cost effective.

I have seen many comments about the relationship between teapot shape and leaves expanding. This is a bit puzzling to me, and if anyone could shed some light, I would appreciate.

As far as I have been able to observe, tea leaves expand vertically as well as horizontally inside a teapot. Basically, the leaves will expand wherever there is water, more or less. If there is 100ml of water in a flat-shaped teapot, there is 100ml of volume for leaves to expand. If there is 100ml of water in a "tall" teapot, there is still 100ml for the leaves. Unless a teapot is shallow or narrow to a ridiculous degree, I do not see how part of the volume of water might be off-limits to the expansion of the leaves.

That does not mean I think shape is necessarily irrelevant : for instance, a flatter teapot is likely to have more water-to-air contact area and a different surface-to-volume ratio and therefore different heat dissipation properties. It is just that I cannot figure out how "more room for the leaves to expand" could be a factor.

@faj
Old Teachat has valuable yixing information like this that was discussed, and like most yixing discussion, it’s a rabbit hole haha.

So far the only logical that make sense to me are leaves expansion and heat retention. Here are a few sources that I came across:

https://www.teachat.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14442

https://www.teachat.com/viewtopic.php?t=18059

https://www.teachat.com/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=3480

https://www.teachat.com/viewtopic.php?t=20997

For me, I hardly touch Yancha due to price and my limited access. If I encounter a yixing with a shape that I like and it fits my budget, I don’t mind owning it for later exploration.

[Bok]

That does not mean I think shape is necessarily irrelevant : for instance, a flatter teapot is likely to have more water-to-air contact area and a different surface-to-volume ratio and therefore different heat dissipation properties. It is just that I cannot figure out how "more room for the leaves to expand" could be a factor.

As often it depends. For example, tightly rolled Oolong will sort of be squeezed in between the sides of a tall, narrow teapot, like getting stuck in a chimney – hence not optimal for an equally developed brew.

But you are right, this mostly goes for extreme shapes, not a tall-ish, flat-ish shape. People often mindlessly repeat what they have been told without confirming for themselves. I have used very flat pots for rolled Oolong and it works, you just have to adapt to it.

[carogust]

For yancha connoisseurs, a small and fast pouring teapot is a must, because they like to brew their tea with very high ratios (15ml-10ml per gram) and high end yancha can be extremely pricey (upwards of 1 dollar per gram).
Some use teapots as small as 50-60ml! This comes in handy if you like to brew your tea "traditional chaozhou style" where you form a ball of crush/broken leaves in the teapot (whatever traditional actually means, as I've found out that people have very conflicting opinion on what is traditional GFC). More information on this style here: https://www.kyarazen.com/chaozhou-gongfu-tea/

Though, a pot as small as 50-60ml suffers from heat retention problems, so for most the optimal size is 80-100ml. A round shape helps as well, which has the least surface area to volume.
Don't think the small size is a problem with Trad. CHZ style because the tea infuses so quickly it doesn't really matter. And again, a round shape is preferred for the "tea gall".

The reason why you want a fast pour is because otherwise the tea would become too strong, impacting your ability to taste subtleties. This is the reason why whiskey drinkers dilute their whiskey. The same concept can be applied to wine, coffee and tea.
Personally, realizing that this could apply to tea as well, I've brewed my tea way weaker than I would normally. The impact has been amazing! Oddly enough, the tea actually tastes stronger than with a thick brew, most likely because the aromatic compounds are "stuck" in the tea liqour. Aftertaste and mouthfeel are improved as well.

Personally, I don't agree with the general consensus of yancha drinkers. In my opinion, a flash brew with a lot of leaf creates a one dimensional tasting tea, and drinking a potful of tea that might even cost 6-10 dollars is very wasteful feeling. In my experience, you definitely don't need to brew yancha with high ratios.
And using too many leaves impacts the later steepings negatively as well (however this is advantageous in Trad GFZ), which can be as good as the first initial brews if you can appreciate them. A "traditionally" processed, aged and high roast yancha I've caved into drinking is amazingly consistent in the later steepings, providing 7 or so steeps that are all good as each other!
As far as clay pairing goes, I've found that my cheapo hongni shuiping sings best with yancha.

[theredbaron]

Based on your experience, what kind of Yixing teapot would you recommend for Yancha?


-Youzi

Good Yancha is my favorite tea, and has been for more than 25 years.
My go to Yancha pot nowadays is a high fired early 70's 60 ml Hong Ni Shui Ping, when alone, or with two people.
I would suggest Hong Ni for Yancha, Zini is usually too muting (unless you have not so good high fired Yancha) to bring out the subtleties inherent to Yancha.

Much more difficult is finding good Yancha however, navigating between for me almost undrinkable modern greenish Yancha, or too high roasted high high oxidized Yancha masking a bad leaf.
I got my hands however recently at a good supply of some decent Yancha, and a few hundred grams of simply outstanding aged Shui Xien from 1993, which i drink in small doses to make it last longer.

[theredbaron]

Personally, I don't agree with the general consensus of yancha drinkers. In my opinion, a flash brew with a lot of leaf creates a one dimensional tasting tea, and drinking a potful of tea that might even cost 6-10 dollars is very wasteful feeling. In my experience, you definitely don't need to brew yancha with high ratios.

Indeed.
It actually is an internet misconception that you need to have a brutally strong Yancha brew. When i learned to drink Yancha from Paul Lim (Lim Ping Xiang) he uses a much lower leaf to water ratio for exactly the reasons you cited.

[Victoria]

Personally, I don't agree with the general consensus of yancha drinkers. In my opinion, a flash brew with a lot of leaf creates a one dimensional tasting tea, and drinking a potful of tea that might even cost 6-10 dollars is very wasteful feeling. In my experience, you definitely don't need to brew yancha with high ratios.

Indeed.
It actually is an internet misconception that you need to have a brutally strong Yancha brew. When i learned to drink Yancha from Paul Lim (Lim Ping Xiang) he uses a much lower leaf to water ratio for exactly the reasons you cited.

Curious, what steeping parameters are you both using - gram leaf /ml water /temp /time ? So far I’ve only used high leaf to water ratios; +-7gr/90ml/211f/10,12,15,35... but know others enjoy British style as well with some yancha.

In term of vessel for steeping yancha, my favorite is a 80ml Yamada Sou mayake kyusu that is reduction fired, thin body but brews really well. With Yixing pots my favorite is a 70ml f1 early 80s Neiwalinjiang, then an 80ml f1 hongni and 90ml f1 zini.

[theredbaron]

Curious, what steeping parameters are you both using - gram leaf /ml water /temp /time ? So far I’ve only used high leaf to water ratios; +-7gr/90ml/211f/10,12,15,35... but know others enjoy British style as well with some yancha.

In term of vessel for steeping yancha, my favorite is a 80ml Yamada Sou mayake kyusu that is reduction fired, thin body but brews really well. With Yixing pots my favorite is a 70ml f1 early 80s Neiwalinjiang, then an 80ml f1 hongni and 90ml f1 zini.

Definately not british style for Yancha.

I never count grams, i do it by intuition and experience.
I fill a pot between half and three quarters full with leaves, depending on mood, the tea itself, and depending on the amount of broken leaves (the more broken leaves the less), and still do flash brews which i extend in time the more rinses i had. The llast rinses i leave even for 15 mins or longer, to get the last bit out of the tea. Those rinses can be surprisingly good. But that only works with good Yancha. Not the crap that i have tried from the usual internet stores.

[Victoria]

Definately not british style for Yancha.

I never count grams, i do it by intuition and experience.
I fill a pot between half and three quarters full with leaves, depending on mood, the tea itself, and depending on the amount of broken leaves (the more broken leaves the less), and still do flash brews which i extend in time the more rinses i had. The llast rinses i leave even for 15 mins or longer, to get the last bit out of the tea. Those rinses can be surprisingly good. But that only works with good Yancha. Not the crap that i have tried from the usual internet stores.

If you haven’t tried British (grandpa) style I recommend it at least once, it’s very good as well, different, but pleasantly nuanced. Depending on yancha +- 7gr/ 300ml/3min steep.
Your prior post sounded like you prefer steeping in a less concentrated way, but based on your last reply, it sounds like you’re simple adding maybe 1 gram fewer leaves than if you were to fill the pot with the twisted yancha leaves. Curious, what are you basing your comment that there are ‘misconceptions’ on?

It actually is an internet misconception that you need to have a brutally strong Yancha brew. When i learned to drink Yancha from Paul Lim (Lim Ping Xiang) he uses a much lower leaf to water ratio for exactly the reasons you cited.

[theredbaron]

If you haven’t tried British (grandpa) style I recommend it at least once, it’s very good as well, different, but pleasantly nuanced. Depending on yancha +- 7gr/ 300ml/3min steep.
Your prior post sounded like you prefer steeping in a less concentrated way, but based on your last reply, it sounds like you’re simple adding maybe 1 gram fewer leaves than if you were to fill the pot with the twisted yancha leaves. Curious, what are you basing your comment that there are ‘misconceptions’ on?

I base that on discussions i had in the past where people were convinced that when drinking Yancha the pot has to be filled to the rim. That i think is a misconception. That is too much in my opinion, and there the tea loses subtleties. A bit less is better with high quality yancha. I still drink it concentrated, but not brutally so.
To grandfather Yancha is good when drinking it for lunch or dinner, or when sipping it while doing something else. I do that on occasion with my not so good Yancha. But my really good Yancha i do it the traditional way.

[carogust]

Personally, I don't agree with the general consensus of yancha drinkers. In my opinion, a flash brew with a lot of leaf creates a one dimensional tasting tea, and drinking a potful of tea that might even cost 6-10 dollars is very wasteful feeling. In my experience, you definitely don't need to brew yancha with high ratios.

Indeed.
It actually is an internet misconception that you need to have a brutally strong Yancha brew. When i learned to drink Yancha from Paul Lim (Lim Ping Xiang) he uses a much lower leaf to water ratio for exactly the reasons you cited.

Curious, what steeping parameters are you both using - gram leaf /ml water /temp /time ? So far I’ve only used high leaf to water ratios; +-7gr/90ml/211f/10,12,15,35... but know others enjoy British style as well with some yancha.

In term of vessel for steeping yancha, my favorite is a 80ml Yamada Sou mayake kyusu that is reduction fired, thin body but brews really well. With Yixing pots my favorite is a 70ml f1 early 80s Neiwalinjiang, then an 80ml f1 hongni and 90ml f1 zini.

I use a ratio of 5g/110ml/3-7s and always boil water for each steep. I've played around with even lower ratios but it is somewhat tricky as my largest gaiwan is barely 110ml. I can't be bothered to have multiple sessions per day most of the time.

I did some research on Lim Ping Xiang and in one video where he teaches there is a large ~1 liter pot being used with what I'd say is 20g of tea? Hard to say. Maybe @theredbaron can comment on that.

[OCTO]

I never count grams, i do it by intuition and experience.

I fill a pot between half and three quarters full with leaves, depending on mood, the tea itself, and depending on the amount of broken leaves (the more broken leaves the less), and still do flash brews which i extend in time the more rinses i had. The llast rinses i leave even for 15 mins or longer, to get the last bit out of the tea. Those rinses can be surprisingly good. But that only works with good Yancha. Not the crap that i have tried from the usual internet stores.

I'm in complete agreement with @@theredbaron