Puzzled wannabe Yixing buyer

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OCTO
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:42 pm

steanze wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:08 pm
It's marketing... the end result does not look like any old pots I have seen. IT could still brew good tea though.

I would focus on broader distinctions (hongni/zini/duanni), firing temperature, grain, and most importantly the quality of the clay. If the clay is super rare or super common doesn't really matter for your tea brewing, unless you are a collector. And if you are a collector I'd advise to spend a long time studying old pots first.
+1 @steanze

The master has spoken.... :D :D
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OCTO
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:55 pm

steanze wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:37 pm
Youzi wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:14 pm

Do you have some photos of actual Li Pi Ni? Not the style or texture, but the one made from DST Li Pi Ni?
I tried to find photos of old pots of Li Pi Ni, but all were just imitation of the surface texture, not actually made out of the clay.
I don't know. I have seen many old duanni pots, some are more grainy, some are less. What should I look for to determine if it is actual "Li Pi Ni"? Is this one below Li Pi Ni?

Image
Good question @steanze.

I've often seen 梨皮 or Pear Skin as a method of processing and blending the clay with larger grain clay resulting in an outward appearance of a pear skin. 梨皮 often used to describe the outward appearance of the teapot. In my limited knowledge... first time I'm hearing this as a clay. As @steanzementioned, what do we look for to determine if the clay is actually 梨皮泥 Li Pi Ni ??

my 2cents worth...

Cheers!!
Chadrinkincat
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:04 pm

Specific clay types is the new gushu. Every vendor is offering newfangled looking pots with fancy clay names along with fluffy stories about rarity.
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OCTO
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:08 pm

Chadrinkincat wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:04 pm
Specific clay types is the new gushu. Every vendor is offering newfangled looking pots with fancy clay names along with fluffy stories about rarity.
+1... If clays are indeed that rare and valuable... it will not find its way to the consumer market. Very often snapped up by private collectors before it hits the shelves. There are collectors who are more than willing to pay a hefty premium for the keep sake of the pot.
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steanze
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:20 pm

OCTO wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:08 pm

+1... If clays are indeed that rare and valuable... it will not find its way to the consumer market. Very often snapped up by private collectors before it hits the shelves. There are collectors who are more than willing to pay a hefty premium for the keep sake of the pot.
Exactly. Wealthy people in China can easily spend $5000 usd or more for a yixing teapot. If someone finds a super rare clay 1) it will be reserved for fully handmade teapots made by a skilled craftsman, 2) it won't be sold for anywhere near $200.
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steanze
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:24 pm

OCTO wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:42 pm

The master has spoken.... :D :D
:lol:
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OCTO
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:34 pm

steanze wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:20 pm
2) it won't be sold for anywhere near $200.
Try adding 3 more Zeros to the pricetag.
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Youzi
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Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:44 am

faj wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:34 pm
I noticed MudandLeaves posted about a very small batch of clay they just processed. Link below.

https://www.mudandleaves.com/teatime-bl ... -skin-clay

Their claim is this is Lipini, a type of lüni which is found in small amounts in Tian Qing Ni clay deposits. In my very limited readings, I have found no claims that Tian Qing Ni was still being mined, or that there was an even more elusive clay being mined with it. I would be curious to know what more knowledgeable and experienced people make of this claim.

Aside from how little of this clay they have extracted from the several hundreds of kg of Tian Qing Ni they have on hand (in itself quite a claim to me it seems), they do not seem to be making any claim on its effect on tea, or even recommended tea pairings for that matter.

Youzi, in your blog, you had information about Tian Qing Ni. Maybe you could comment on this?
Insted of gut feelings and opinions, I'd prefer to share the facts I know about Li Pi Ni instead.

There are two things refferred to as Li Pi Ni:

I. The actual raw ore
- Li Pi Ni (梨皮泥) is a sub-type of Lüni.
- Lüni is an ore mainly found in the Huang Long Shan mining area. That ore is also referred to as "Benshan Lüni".
- Li Pi Ni is Lüni from Da Shui Tan (大水潭) the ancient mine used during the Ming and Qing Dynasties. It mainly produced Zini (zini, Qinghuini, Tianqingni) Lüni(In this case Li Pi Ni) and Tuanni. Currently it is a small pond, because a 100+ years ago it got flooded with ground water.
- Tian Qing Ni and Li Pi Ni is always fused together.
- Da Shui Tan is at the south east side of Huang Long Shan, on the other side of the road. (You can see it on the map in my article). Because DST is a lake and it has buildings around it except for the side where HLS is, so Mining is "not possible".
- However there are two ways to access DST material nowdays:
1. Because nature isn't defined by Human structures probably there is DST material on the HLS side, which is shown in Zhu Zewei's book. Also, because HLS resumed mining since 2010 there are official ways to aquire HLS material from the Goverment owned Mining company, who has a monopoly over the mine.
2. The houses around DST. There were news of buildings collapsing because Illegal mining activity at the houses near DST (people dug out the foundation). So the clay obtained this way are sold in personal circles.


II. a kind of texture and look on the teapot, when it is finished
- basically a teapot with a coarse surface can be called Li Pi (Zini, Zhuni, Hongni, Tuanni etc.)
- which can be obtained easily by making the ore dust 30-50 Mu (目) or adding larger chunks of Nenni/Duanni

@steanze
@OCTO
Attachments
Actual 梨皮泥 form the Yixing Museum, from Zhu Zewei's collection. Compare this to M&L's pictures
Actual 梨皮泥 form the Yixing Museum, from Zhu Zewei's collection. Compare this to M&L's pictures
0A2B9072-6AA0-4418-8E8A-A82FFB635F98.jpeg (168.26 KiB) Viewed 1201 times
The structure of the ores and how they like up with each other
The structure of the ores and how they like up with each other
C9632492-D08B-4C51-AC7F-4DDF8FFAD659.jpeg (204.25 KiB) Viewed 1201 times
Part of the book by 朱泽伟 about 梨皮泥
Part of the book by 朱泽伟 about 梨皮泥
6EFD4AE9-3D3A-411D-97C2-029CF50F462C.jpeg (250.82 KiB) Viewed 1201 times
Last edited by Youzi on Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
faj
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Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:13 am

Out of curiosity is there any special virtue Li Pi Ni (the ore) is supposed to have from a tea drinking perspective?
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Youzi
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Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:17 am

Chadrinkincat wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:04 pm
Specific clay types is the new gushu. Every vendor is offering newfangled looking pots with fancy clay names along with fluffy stories about rarity.
The main types of Zini, Hongni, Zhuni, Lüni basically act the same within their respective category. The only difference is the mineral structure of the sub clays, but it's basically the same.

The difference comes out mainly in the color and surface feel of the finished teapot.

But that too mostly is defined by the clay processing, building and firing, not the raw ore itself.
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Youzi
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Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:23 am

faj wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:13 am
Out of curiosity is there any special virtue Li Pi Ni (the ore) is supposed to have from a tea drinking perspective?
Opinion, not fact:
I don't think there's a major difference within the major clay types.

What matters much more is the mesh size, firing temperature (primary porosity ), processing of the clay and pounding (secondary porosity)
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Bok
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Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:31 am

Youzi wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:23 am
faj wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:13 am
Out of curiosity is there any special virtue Li Pi Ni (the ore) is supposed to have from a tea drinking perspective?
Opinion, not fact:
I don't think there's a major difference within the major clay types.

What matters much more is the mesh size, firing temperature (primary porosity ), processing of the clay and pounding (secondary porosity)
Which doesn’t change the final outcome, that the main clay types in teapot form still brew the same tea in different flavour profiles ;)

But I agree in the sense that the differences are marginal and not noticeable if not compared attentively side by side. maybe with the exception of Duanni, where I found the difference most prominent.
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Youzi
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Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:36 am

Bok wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:31 am
Youzi wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:23 am
faj wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:13 am
Out of curiosity is there any special virtue Li Pi Ni (the ore) is supposed to have from a tea drinking perspective?
Opinion, not fact:
I don't think there's a major difference within the major clay types.

What matters much more is the mesh size, firing temperature (primary porosity ), processing of the clay and pounding (secondary porosity)
Which doesn’t change the final outcome, that the main clay types in teapot form still brew the same tea in different flavour profiles ;)

But I agree in the sense that the differences are marginal and not noticeable if not compared attentively side by side. maybe with the exception of Duanni, where I found the difference most prominent.
Sorry, maybe we misunderstood each other?

What I mean is: Di Cao Qing, Qing Hui Ni, Qing Shui Ni, all brews like basically Zini.

There's a noticable difference between Zhuni, Hongni, Zini.

Tuanni, because it's not a pure clay in its raw form, can be noticeably different within itself.
Last edited by Youzi on Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Bok
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Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:51 am

@Youzi yes I misunderstood! Sorry about that. Agreed about the Zini-family :)

There are still minute differences but it’s hard to tell if it’s due to the clay or the other factors that you mentioned. I found that individual pots, rather than clays have a certain profile and teas that match it, often defying the commonly agreed characteristics.
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Youzi
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Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:13 am

Bok wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:51 am
Youzi yes I misunderstood! Sorry about that. Agreed about the Zini-family :)

There are still minute differences but it’s hard to tell if it’s due to the clay or the other factors that you mentioned. I found that individual pots, rather than clays have a certain profile and teas that match it, often defying the commonly agreed characteristics.
Of course, actually what matters is the finished product, the pot it self. That's what will define what kind of the it'll make.

There's a saying, which I say too many times, that I'm not sure anymore If I made it up or read it somewhere, but it goes like this:

"The Teapot chooses the Tea"

So you can have guesses based on certain attributes, but at the end of the day what'll decide if a tea is good with a teapot is when you try it out yourself for said pot.
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