Shudei vs Zhuni - or the case of the elusive two Zhuni

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Bok
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Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:47 am

The following is a partial answer to a big question mark I was ever after, since I read a statement on Hojo's website in regards to Shudei clay. It was along the lines that Shudei clay, same as some Yixing clays, had some ores that have been extinct over time. The first generation of Shudei clay being famous for being equal to the Chinese Zhuni. Shudei even means Zhuni in Japanese. This early Shudei is more orangey in tone than the later ones. He further stated that in regards to the Yamada kiln, it had been used up to early Jozan III and then most likely been depleted.

The family itself denies this and states that their grandfather collected enough for generations to last. All the while others who own a range of Yamadas have confirmed that the clay is indeed ever slightly different from generation to generation, becoming redder and chalkier, compared to the more silky smooth earlier Shudei. According to Hojo the current Shudei is not as good as the extinct one, of course pushing his own Mumyoi red clay alongside, but fair enough. He tends to make some controversial statements, but this one intrigued me.

I was very curious to find out, if there is some truth to it that Zhuni and early Shudei are equals. It took me a while to get the perfect sized old Tokoname teapot to make a fair side by side comparison with Zhuni, but I am all set now!
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Bok
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Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:55 am

So here is the set up:

Both teapots are about 90ml. The Zhuni on the right hand side is a bit thinner, but that could not be helped... The old Tokoname Shudei is from an unknown craftsman, no chops or seal and one can tell that it dates from a period where Chinese styles where copied, yet not mastered, a roughness which is not typical for later Japanese works can be found on the inside and other places.

Both pour at a speedy 6 seconds.

Tea used is a Lishan Dongpian from last Winter, freshly opened pack, smells wonderful! Both clays are frequently mentioned as being good for Gaoshan, so I deemed it a good choice. It is also a tea I am intimately familiar with, which allows for better judgement on my side.

Water from a Tetsubin and we are all set to go.
Before even starting: The Zhuni wins the beauty contest no doubt, the subtle glow of its surface is no match for the Shudei. Yet on its own, the Shudei is very pretty as well, I do like its orangey hue and it is very smooth and velvety to the touch.
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Bok
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Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:18 am

First round:

I do like to smell the inside of the lid for hints of what's to come in the cup. The Zhuni lid is very fragrant, Shudei less, but - the smell in the Shudei stays longer, while the one in Zhuni dissipates quickly.

The tea broth is almost the same colour, the Zhuni always a tad darker. First cup tastes the same to me.

That changes in subsequent infusions, when the Shudei's cup taste ever so slightly more rounded and balanced. The Zhuni is merciless and bringing out tiny faults in this otherwise good quality tea. It also seems to be a bit hotter to the touch.

The above mentioned qualities stay like this in subsequent brews.

So all in all, a temporary result would be that they are definitely not the same! Not equals. I think I slightly prefer the Shudei, but I might need to repeat testing with other teas, hard to say after one test only.

Please chime in if you have your own experiences and impressions to share!
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Baisao
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Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:00 pm

That's a very nice comparison.

It strikes me that shudei tends to be more porous than zhuni and may not be as highly fired or have as much silica content. The former is more line hongni and the latter is almost glass-like, in my opinion. This speaks to how well heat was being conducted in the zhuni pot you tested.

Regarding Sado Island mumyoi and shudei (from Tokoname and elsewhere), it has been my experience that Tokoname shudei makes a slightly edgy textured brew compared to mumyoi and the hand mined & processed shudei I have had from Hokkaido.

The mumyoi clay is crimson and the Hokkaido shudei is vibrantly orange yet both have a similar smoothing affect on tea.
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Brent D
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Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:47 pm

Very interesting comparison! Thanks for the notes.
Having pulled myself out of the pot collecting rabbit hole, I force myself to not look too deeply into this sort of thing...
But oh, if a Zhuni or Shudei was available to me... :lol:
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Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:34 am

Raw Zhuni ore is yellow in color, and it is the only Yixing clay which can be dissolved in water.

Raw zhuni is chalk like and easy to break apart, unlike other kinds of Zisha, which are more solid, similar to rocks.

I'm not sure how old Shudei raw clay looked like, but the Shudei I found online, looked totally different from raw Zhuni clay. So there's not even a chance for them to be the "same". However they can have a similar effect, but it's easier just to get Zhuni from the new mines near yixing.
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Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:58 am

@Youzi of course they are not the same as in the same material composition. What the original statement of Hojo was, is that it has a similar effect on the tea as Zhuni, just as you mentioned.

All said and done it wouldn’t be impossible to imagine that identical clays could be found in different geographic location, just very unlikely.
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Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:04 am

Bok wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:58 am
Youzi of course they are not the same as in the same material composition. What the original statement of Hojo was, is that it has a similar effect on the tea as Zhuni, just as you mentioned.

All said and done it wouldn’t be impossible to imagine that identical clays could be found in different geographic location, just very unlikely.
What I mean is, that if the starting material isn't even similar to begin with, then they don't have much chance to have the same kind of effect.

The effect a teapot has on the tea depends on too many factors, besides the base material. If we take two shuiping-s, the same size and attributes, then what comes next, that have the largest effect is firing temperature, then clay processing, then material. 🤔
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Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:14 pm

Hojo makes a lot of contentions statements so I think what he asserts should be taken with some good-natured skepticism until you have tested his statements for yourself.

I've had shudei from various locations and cannot say that they are all the same. On the other hand, I have had mumyoi and shudei that have similar characteristics on the texture of teas.

It is obvious that shudei and zhuni do not share the same physical characteristics other than they are on the same side of the color wheel. They don't even appear to be fired the same. However, it may be that some shudei work with some teas as well as some zhuni.

Those are a lot of conditions but it is nevertheless possible.
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Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:10 pm

Baisao wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:14 pm
Hojo makes a lot of contentions statements so I think what he asserts should be taken with some good-natured skepticism until you have tested his statements for yourself.

I've had shudei from various locations and cannot say that they are all the same. On the other hand, I have had mumyoi and shudei that have similar characteristics on the texture of teas.

It is obvious that shudei and zhuni do not share the same physical characteristics other than they are on the same side of the color wheel. They don't even appear to be fired the same. However, it may be that some shudei work with some teas as well as some zhuni.

Those are a lot of conditions but it is nevertheless possible.
+1 in my experience shudei and zhuni have totally different effects on tea, across different craftsmen and periods. Shudei is far more porous.
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Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:42 pm

Interesting experiment Bok. Just this morning I prepared an award winning LiShan in an Emu shudei kyusu, and was wondering if this clay brings out some harsher notes in this LiShan. Thinking of your thread, I’ll test this same LiShan, using same Iceland Spring water, with both Shimizu Ken’s Nosaka clay from Sado Island, and a Jozan III Tokoname shudei clay kyusu, to see if there is a substantial difference in brewing results. Shimizu Ken’s Nosaka is slightly more orange than Emu’s, and Emu’s shudei is slightly more porous and orange than Jozan III shudei. I agree earlier Yamada kiln shudie is finished off silkier and smoother, but also find earlier shudei to be slightly deeper maroon, not more orange toned as you referenced. @Youzi’s comments resonate with me as well regarding clay not being only factor but firing, processing as well.

So far, I prefer Shimizu Ken’s Nosaka clay brew over early Emu shudei with this LiShan. It is smoother, less tannic, and buttery sweet. Emu’s shudei was harsher, less buttery smooth. The Nosaka clay kyusu is slightly thicker bodied and less pours than Emu’s shudei kyusu. Since I received the Nosaka clay kyusu several years ago I’ve used it mostly with high mountain, it just performs well with these oolong. It might perform more similar to Hongni clay. Hojo states “The property of Nosaka is similar to Yixing Zhuni in terms of the color of clay and its performance to the taste of tea.” I don’t see this comparison, from what I understand Zhuni is typically thinner and less porous, more high fired, and denser walled. I don’t own an antique Zhuni pot so can’t compare apples for apples, although looking at my modern 90s/‘00 Zhuni pot, and from what I’ve read about Zhuni the Nosaka clay seems different in character. Shimizu Ken’s Nosaka clay is also different from Watanabe Tozo's clay, even though they are both from Sado island mountain. I don’t own a Watanabe Tozo's clay kyusu so can’t compare further. * Does anyone have both Nosaka and Mumyoi clay oxidation fired kyusu that can comment on any differences in steeping tea results?

Next, I will try a Jozan III shudei to see if there is a difference in this clay’s effect on this LiShan. The shudei clay is slightly less porous than Emu’s, the form is very horizontal and kyusu is larger so it might not be a fair comparison.
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Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:03 pm

Thanks everyone for the feedback everyone!

Makes me really think how Hojo comes up with this statments in the first place. Overall he seems very dedicated to tea and teaware, as well as researching his topics, not many shops source their own clays... Unless he has a huge collection of Yixing that we do not know of, I find it hard to believe how he can even come to these conclusions?
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Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:19 pm

In the next step I might extend the comparisons to Chaozhou clay, visually it looks very similar and I have a pot in the right size :mrgreen:

@Victoria funny you mention Shudei as turning the tea harsher, which was my impression of the Zhuni. I suspect that the underlying issue is the tea. The clay will put the faults in the forefront, in harsh daylight. Zhuni and porcelain more so than more absorbing clays.

Heat could also be the issue, so shorter steeps might help, still in the end, if the tea is good enough it can take the heat. Premium high mountain is almost indestructible by neglectful brewing.
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Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:22 pm

Bok wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:03 pm
Thanks everyone for the feedback everyone!

Makes me really think how Hojo comes up with this statments in the first place. Overall he seems very dedicated to tea and teaware, as well as researching his topics, not many shops source their own clays... Unless he has a huge collection of Yixing that we do not know of, I find it hard to believe how he can even come to these conclusions?
Things like this get people discussing his shop so it’s sorta a good sales strategy.
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Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:24 pm

Bok wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:03 pm
Thanks everyone for the feedback everyone!

Makes me really think how Hojo comes up with this statments in the first place. Overall he seems very dedicated to tea and teaware, as well as researching his topics, not many shops source their own clays... Unless he has a huge collection of Yixing that we do not know of, I find it hard to believe how he can even come to these conclusions?
Yes, Hojo does make available thoughtful and high quality teaware and tea. I’m not sure which text you were referencing Bok, but maybe we need to take him more literally. For instance my reference to his comment that “The property of Nosaka is similar to Yixing Zhuni in terms of the color of clay and its performance to the taste of tea.” - is Only saying the color and performance between these clays is similar, not the clays or fired pots themselves. I can’t compare steeping results since I don’t have an antique Zhuni to do a side-by-side with Nosaka clay.

@Bok feel free to send me one of yours to test out :lol: .
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