Yixing

[njm]

Why not what is wrong with sharing knowledge ?

It can be used to make better fakes. That knowledge needs to be earned by studying and observing teapots...

If sharing knowledge might lead to more convincing fakes, does that imply modern clay can actually be very similar to what was available historically? That seems to run counter to claims of scarcity of quality materials today.

[Bok]

If sharing knowledge might lead to more convincing fakes, does that imply modern clay can actually be very similar to what was available historically? That seems to run counter to claims of scarcity of quality materials today.

In modern fakes, clay is made to look like older clay, in the best case by blending different clays and bits to achieve a certain colour/texture, in the worst by spraypainting (light silvery grey to achieve an antique patina for example). Other colours and patina are simply achieved by accelerating it with all sorts of safe and unsafe methods. Classic is to just bury the pot in the dirt or leave it outside exposed to the elements. Which is why the first thing I do is to thoroughly clean any suspected old item.

The other factor apart from the clay itself, is that processing/aging/firing methods have been different in the past. So not only is the base clay different from today but also the whole surrounding process. Old pots can be hit and miss in terms of clay, some are under-fired, made of strange blends, have all sorts of of defects. Which for me is also part of the fun, you never know what you get and how it will brew. The last pot I posted is super high-fired for example, rings like glass. So all bets are off and it does not perform like you would expect from a regular Qinghuini.

Not going back so far, if you hold and touch a real 60s Hongni in hands it is obviously a very different clay compared to 80-90s.

[steanze]

Why not what is wrong with sharing knowledge ?

It can be used to make better fakes. That knowledge needs to be earned by studying and observing teapots...

If sharing knowledge might lead to more convincing fakes, does that imply modern clay can actually be very similar to what was available historically? That seems to run counter to claims of scarcity of quality materials today.

This is a very good question. Bok already made several good points. Most clays used in the past are different from today's clays in color, texture and processing, BUT the following caveats apply:
1) for some clays, there are contemporary batches that are relatively similar to older batches. Zini is the most obvious case, where there is contemporary zini that can look quite similar to some batches of ROC zini.
2) some differences are hard to see from pictures. For example, under a carefully chosen lighting, a hue that is a bit off might look correct in photos. When authenticating in person, color is more helpful. When authenticating from pictures, craftsmanship and the clay texture/grain are more helpful.

Here it is important to point out that different does not mean worse. There are good modern clays. They are often different from old clays (for a variety of reasons), but they can still be good. I don't want to be misunderstood as saying that all modern clay is bad. I own and use pots made after 2000 which in my view have very good clay. HOWEVER, usually you cannot find these kinds of pots for sub $100 on the internet. Which leads us to the issue about scarcity:

Scarcity depends on the amount of resources but also on demand. There is good clay out there today. But we need to remember that production and demand has increased enormously since the ROC. During ROC, yixing teapots were items owned by a smaller set of relatively well-off families. Production was mostly manual and time consuming, wood firing cost a lot of effort. Today, yixing teapots are daily use items for tens of millions of people, they are mass produced with molds and electric kilns on an unprecedented scale. There still is good clay, but there isn't THAT MUCH of it. Throughout the past century, you can see that increases in the volume of production have often corresponded to decreases in quality. During the Factory 1 period (1958-1997), productions in the 60s was much lower, and the clay was best. Potters also had more time to "weather" the clay. In the 70s, the clay was still good but the weathering time was getting shorter. With the growth of Chinese economy in the late '70s through the '90s, production continued to increase, and the clay that was once used to make "common" teapots was later used only for higher end teapots. More common teapots, instead, started being made with other clays, sometimes clays that in the '60s and '70s were only used to make flower vases. This trend goes on until today, with potters increasingly seeking out clays from regions outside Yixing. Nowadays, even buying in China and knowing where to look, it is not easy to find new pots that I'd say have good clay for under $300-400.

Here are two examples of modern (post 2000) pots that in my view have pretty good clay. The first one is Zhuni:

P1110820 (1).JPG (320.72 KiB) Viewed 5660 times

The second one is Qinghuini:

IMG_1414.JPG (88.17 KiB) Viewed 5660 times

[TEAMOOD]

I agree with steanze after reading through. It tooook me so much time to get the disputed argument .

Below what I'm going to say is true(By the limitation of my knowledge). I am still pointing out thought It May causes chaos and further disagreement but I want you people to review our Starting point when fell in love with Chinese tea culture.

Modern Yixing teapots quality is much more refined both on clays, authors' imagination&creation on designs and craftman skills, even on gift packaging for sure(before only newspaper or sanitary papers wrapping ).

With more income rewarding and more recongniztion of the value of their works(it is root change for driving everyone to advance), everyone is carefully on preparing the process of their own in the long supply chain of a teapot. Clay preparation, tools makers, kiln operators and many many on other sections...People know repution matters a lot for their long run of business.

This is a mainstream view in common among our locals including those teapot masters. It is a little confusing to me as a Yixing local why only keywords like F1, FOC can got your interests and trust. Here mentioning you see a dinosaur is more convincing and interesting.
I can understand if it is for luxury collection. but when just getting one for brewing tea?We local all use modern made ones and we are still alive. Local industrial Institution also has comprehensive analysis too. To me, my routine business travelling map covers 14-15countries but Yixing is quite a modern place.

Back to your concern, Tea leaves are being brew well. Of course we also know about leaves and the average cost level of leaves at least not low(some local will disagree with me on this point if drop by here).National tea farmers or garnder owners come here for tea culture exchange and sourcing for zisha teapots for sure(the picture of Global supply network of tea&teapot market becomes more and more clear to me. that is my job skill).

There is no conflict between people's favor/passion on acient teapots and the experience that Modern ones can bring to us. Modern ones can be of typical designs passed down from acient. In fact, Majority of nowadays output here are still adhering to acient designs due to their fame, beauty aesthetic design, practicability or whatever reasons.

Costs of moderns are more realistic and affordable for all.Maybe most of you are being sold too many stories or judgement methods of determing a teapot value. Our locals have been selling them at quite reasonable prices.we don't know how much They are resold.that caused my interest of being here. Most of them work hard over and nignt for an average living.

so. please re-think about what you've been convinced to believe and what you are about to experience .

what you paid is what you get.
high costs items are not always genuine.
sometimes economic ones are also good.

Joe

[TEAMOOD]

BTW, the natural ability of market comptition is removing those ones made from bad Chemical clays. so it can be of your least concern . here almost everyone focus on long term business. stupid ones using poor quality raw materials can't even cash out from investment.

Just enjoy exploring FREELY.
My friends and I are all using modern teapots.
Joe

[Bok]

From what have learned so far is that the period that is causing most concern is neither early Yixing factory, nor the modern day teapots, it is the period starting in the 80s when cultural troubles were over and mass production started in earnest. That is when a lot was produced with often poor quality and replacement materials.

China now has very strict laws in regards to health and safety and they seem to be enforced as well. Together with what you said, a long term reputation to look after, that makes most modern ware probably quite safe.

Trouble is for many that it is difficult to know when exactly a certain batch has been produced. The surplus unsold from these not so good years is still around. Hell, there is still so many 1000s of old pots around, imagine how much of the 90s stuff is still out there, unused and new. Taiwan is full of it for example.

I for one just enjoy a bit of history and back story by using an old teapot. Not mentioning that it saves resources buying second hand...

All the rest is just a matter of personal preference and comparison. Enjoy the tea in the pot you like!

[TEAMOOD]

Exactly . That is why this forum exists, to be neutral 3rd party platform embracing more SUBJECTIVE ideals from various roles of people, to help them on advicing when needed.

Just relax and enjoy. This forum will be here when you can't be sure of something.

Joe

[steanze]

I agree with steanze after reading through. It tooook me so much time to get the disputed argument .

Below what I'm going to say is true(By the limitation of my knowledge). I am still pointing out thought It May causes chaos and further disagreement but I want you people to review our Starting point when fell in love with Chinese tea culture.

Modern Yixing teapots quality is much more refined both on clays, authors' imagination&creation on designs and craftman skills, even on gift packaging for sure(before only newspaper or sanitary papers wrapping ).

With more income rewarding and more recongniztion of the value of their works(it is root change for driving everyone to advance), everyone is carefully on preparing the process of their own in the long supply chain of a teapot. Clay preparation, tools makers, kiln operators and many many on other sections...People know repution matters a lot for their long run of business.

This is a mainstream view in common among our locals including those teapot masters. It is a little confusing to me as a Yixing local why only keywords like F1, FOC can got your interests and trust. Here mentioning you see a dinosaur is more convincing and interesting.
I can understand if it is for luxury collection. but when just getting one for brewing tea?We local all use modern made ones and we are still alive. Local industrial Institution also has comprehensive analysis too. To me, my routine business travelling map covers 14-15countries but Yixing is quite a modern place.

Back to your concern, Tea leaves are being brew well. Of course we also know about leaves and the average cost level of leaves at least not low(some local will disagree with me on this point if drop by here).National tea farmers or garnder owners come here for tea culture exchange and sourcing for zisha teapots for sure(the picture of Global supply network of tea&teapot market becomes more and more clear to me. that is my job skill).

There is no conflict between people's favor/passion on acient teapots and the experience that Modern ones can bring to us. Modern ones can be of typical designs passed down from acient. In fact, Majority of nowadays output here are still adhering to acient designs due to their fame, beauty aesthetic design, practicability or whatever reasons.

Costs of moderns are more realistic and affordable for all.Maybe most of you are being sold too many stories or judgement methods of determing a teapot value. Our locals have been selling them at quite reasonable prices.we don't know how much They are resold.that caused my interest of being here. Most of them work hard over and nignt for an average living.

so. please re-think about what you've been convinced to believe and what you are about to experience .

what you paid is what you get.
high costs items are not always genuine.
sometimes economic ones are also good.

Joe

I agree with most of the points Joe is making. Technology allows to make some details more precise, for example multiple firings make it easier to make the lid fit well with the body, and craftsmanship is more accurate. I think one point I would disagree with is that the clays and authors' imagination are more refined today than in the past. It is difficult to find affordable (sub $400) modern hongni teapots with clay that is as refined as 1960s xiao hongni, or as late Qing/ROC lao zhuni. It would be great if they were easy to find though With respect to the authors' imagination, there are interesting explorations in contemporary yixing, but it is difficult to compete with Shi Dabin's creativity during Ming, or with the shapes introduced by Yang Pengnian in mid-Qing, or with the creative moment after the fall of the imperial system with artists like Wang Yinchun and Gu Jingzhou. I have seen contemporary teapots that are very complicated to do and very well executed, but sometimes the aesthetics are a bit too ornate for my preferences (for example, the works by Zhou Dingfang and Lu Wenxia in this auction: https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/cont ... /lots/1619).

[.m.]

Happy to share
Good question. Late Qing and ROC can be tricky to distinguish. The workmanship can be similar in many respects, so first one dates the period to late Qing or ROC. Once it's established that it is not a modern replica, one can use information about the shape knowing in what periods it was more popular, and if there are marks or seal one can use knowledge about the workshop or about the style of the seal to narrow it down. There are a few other tiny details but they aren't there in all pots. Sometimes it's impossible to tell, and one has to stick to "late Qing or ROC". But in some cases one can say a bit more. For example, the Qinghuini pot has a shape that's not usually used in late Qing but is more common in ROC. Instead, the zini julunzhu has a seal that's used in late Qing but not in ROC. So in those cases I was able to tell...

Thank you for this reply. It makes lot of sense. It also means that a bit more detailed knowledge of the production of the era is needed.

Mid-Qing is becoming prohibitively expensive and a lot more fakes and difficulties arise in terms of dating. Dr Lu mentioned to me once that he basically stops at Mid-Qing. Anything earlier is really diffuse and very risky to collect. Not many experts on those areas will openly share knowledge about how to date those. Basically at the limit only to long term customers.

I don't think i'll ever be that lucky to get my hands on mid-qing or older, so al least i dont need to worry about that. On the other hand LQ/ROC seems relatively common if one's not after a rare clay or refined craftsmanship. It is my understanding that hundreds of thousands pieces were made during that period, lot of them for export.

Not going back so far, if you hold and touch a real 60s Hongni in hands it is obviously a very different clay compared to 80-90s.

This may sound dumb, but can you actually distinguish 60s hongni (ok, i know there are several hongni clays used in that period) from a white label hongni based purely on the appearance of the clay?

[Bok]

I don't think i'll ever be that lucky to get my hands on mid-qing or older, so al least i dont need to worry about that. On the other hand LQ/ROC seems relatively common if one's not after a rare clay or refined craftsmanship. It is my understanding that hundreds of thousands pieces were made during that period, lot of them for export.

Yes indeed, relatively available.

This may sound dumb, but can you actually distinguish 60s hongni (ok, i know there are several hongni clays used in that period) from a white label hongni based purely on the appearance of the clay?

Not a dumb question at all I've been asking these same questions not long ago...

Yes you can. Not on pictures, due to lighting issues, but if you hold the actual pieces in the hand it is very obvious. Not only by superficial looks, but also how it feels to the touch. When I first went to learn about these pots with a seasoned collector it almost made sense immediately, once you have seen the real thing. With all the antiques I have handled now, I still think that 60s hongni is an exceptionally nice clay, in looks and performance. There is a good reason that those pots are so well sought after. My 60s BD got a beautiful glow after relatively little use.

But I wouldn't collect more than one of this clay, if you got one, the second one is not gonna be better. Variations in between are not that big (exceptions exist). Unless for other concerns as specific size or shape.

[Bok]

In a way, if you go for early factory pots you have more security to know what you get. Clay processing was organised and stable. So a hongni for example will very likely perform as you expect it.

Old pots on the other hand can be anything. So many different workshops use different sources and methods. Many clays are blends of different things. Firing could be very variable. In the end it is always a surprise how a specific teapot will perform in the end.

[steanze]

This may sound dumb, but can you actually distinguish 60s hongni (ok, i know there are several hongni clays used in that period) from a white label hongni based purely on the appearance of the clay?

Not dumb. Yes, you can tell from the clay. Actually only one type of hongni is used in the 60s (well, technically they did an experiment with a different processing between '58 and maybe early 60s to make the clay easier to work with, but pots made of that type of clay are very very rare).

Here they are side by side. The picture has poor lighting so it's a bit harder to tell, but some differences are already visible...

60s90s.jpg (127.98 KiB) Viewed 5545 times

[Chadrinkincat]

This may sound dumb, but can you actually distinguish 60s hongni (ok, i know there are several hongni clays used in that period) from a white label hongni based purely on the appearance of the clay?

Not dumb. Yes, you can tell from the clay. Actually only one type of hongni is used in the 60s (well, technically they did an experiment with a different processing between '58 and maybe early 60s to make the clay easier to work with, but pots made of that type of clay are very very rare).

Here they are side by side. The picture has poor lighting so it's a bit harder to tell, but some differences are already visible...

60s90s.jpg

The most obvious difference are easily viable on exterior of pots but I guess much of that is due to different kilns. Things like Wrinkles, texture, color, sheen etc. In person it’s even more obvious even from a distance.

[DailyTX]

Looks like a lot of Yixing Zisha fan/collectors are here. Anyone has recommendation on where to go to learn and shop for Yixing zisha in Hong Kong?

[Bok]

Looks like a lot of Yixing Zisha fan/collectors are here. Anyone has recommendation on where to go to learn and shop for Yixing zisha in Hong Kong?

Look and learn in the Flagstaff Teaware museum: https://www.lcsd.gov.hk/CE/Museum/Arts/ ... -ware.html

Shopping might prove more difficult, HK is small and a lot of people collect and probably scooped up what was available in terms of antiques, maybe vintage pots are still available. I'd just browse some of the old tea shops and the antique shops around Hollywood road. Don't expect good deals though... Keep an eye open you never know!

Lok cha Tea house has some collection if I am not mistaken.

In terms of new teaware it might be a better idea to just take the train or ferry to Guangzhou, most of the stuff comes from there anyways. If you have time that is... Count on a two-day trip to account for traveling time and troubles on the road. But probably you will still find cheaper Yixing in HK than in the West.