Yixing

[mudandleaves]

2019 is starting well... a long time wish of mine, which I did not think attainable has come true: a ROC Biandeng (one of my favourite shapes) and on top of all it is Zhuni clay!

Lid is a bit banged up, but I’ll probably Kintsugi it. Also the whole pot is warped from the firing, funnily the slanted spout is perfect for left handed me.

Two off the checklist in one go

Interesting how many antique zisha pots seem to fall into your lap. I wonder if you have any evidence to support that these are genuine ROC pots? Anyways, from the photo it does look like it might be zhuni. Although the true colour and texture are difficult to judge from the photo.

[mudandleaves]

Here’s an interesting pot... sold to me as Benshan Lv Ni, although I take such claims with a healthy dose of scepticism. While I have a couple of Duan Ni pots, this one is rather different in appearance and feel (the clay has more of an obvious yellow colour and feels more delicate). What do people think, could it be the real deal or something else? It does an excellent job with Chinese greens but somehow manages to have a strongly muting effect on many other teas. I’ve added a couple of photos with different lighting, one in evening sunlight and the other in shade.

It looks like it could be genuine. Your description seems to be accurate for BSL as well (BSL does have a softer feel to it from other duanni).

[steanze]

Here’s an interesting pot... sold to me as Benshan Lv Ni, although I take such claims with a healthy dose of scepticism. While I have a couple of Duan Ni pots, this one is rather different in appearance and feel (the clay has more of an obvious yellow colour and feels more delicate). What do people think, could it be the real deal or something else? It does an excellent job with Chinese greens but somehow manages to have a strongly muting effect on many other teas. I’ve added a couple of photos with different lighting, one in evening sunlight and the other in shade.

It looks like it could be genuine. Your description seems to be accurate for BSL as well (BSL does have a softer feel to it from other duanni).

When you say BSL do you mean actual benshan lv ni mined from benshan, or new yellow clays mined elsewhere? As far as I know lv ni isn't mined from benshan since the '60s. And the clay in the teapot posted is clearly a very different clay from ROC bsln, and from the 1960s F1 dragon egg pot

[steanze]

2019 is starting well... a long time wish of mine, which I did not think attainable has come true: a ROC Biandeng (one of my favourite shapes) and on top of all it is Zhuni clay!

Lid is a bit banged up, but I’ll probably Kintsugi it. Also the whole pot is warped from the firing, funnily the slanted spout is perfect for left handed me.

Two off the checklist in one go

Interesting how many antique zisha pots seem to fall into your lap. I wonder if you have any evidence to support that these are genuine ROC pots? Anyways, from the photo it does look like it might be zhuni. Although the true colour and texture are difficult to judge from the photo.

@mudandleaves there is no need to be snarky. Bok's pots are very clearly authentic. In case you did not take Bok's and my word, they have all been authenticated by Dr Lv in Taiwan, a published expert on old teapots...

[mudandleaves]

2019 is starting well... a long time wish of mine, which I did not think attainable has come true: a ROC Biandeng (one of my favourite shapes) and on top of all it is Zhuni clay!

Lid is a bit banged up, but I’ll probably Kintsugi it. Also the whole pot is warped from the firing, funnily the slanted spout is perfect for left handed me.

Two off the checklist in one go

Interesting how many antique zisha pots seem to fall into your lap. I wonder if you have any evidence to support that these are genuine ROC pots? Anyways, from the photo it does look like it might be zhuni. Although the true colour and texture are difficult to judge from the photo.

so mudandleaves do you know anything about ROC pots? Because those are very obviously authentic. In case you did not take Bok's and my word, they have all been authenticated by Dr Lv in Taiwan, a published expert on old teapots...

Nope, never claimed to be an antique collector. I would love to see the authenticating document(s) and learn more about the origins of the teapot in that case. Since you're obviously an expert from your attitude, I would also love to hear what aspects make it "obviously authentic" that you can tell from the photo that couldn't be replicated today? I'm not saying it's fake, I'm asking for evidence to support the claim.

[Baisao]

Capture.PNG (207.99 KiB) Viewed 5874 times

[mudandleaves]

Here’s an interesting pot... sold to me as Benshan Lv Ni, although I take such claims with a healthy dose of scepticism. While I have a couple of Duan Ni pots, this one is rather different in appearance and feel (the clay has more of an obvious yellow colour and feels more delicate). What do people think, could it be the real deal or something else? It does an excellent job with Chinese greens but somehow manages to have a strongly muting effect on many other teas. I’ve added a couple of photos with different lighting, one in evening sunlight and the other in shade.

It looks like it could be genuine. Your description seems to be accurate for BSL as well (BSL does have a softer feel to it from other duanni).

When you say BSL do you mean actual benshan lv ni mined from benshan, or new yellow clays mined elsewhere? As far as I know lv ni isn't mined from benshan since the '60s. And the clay in the teapot posted is clearly a very different clay from ROC bsln, and from the 1960s F1 dragon egg pot

I mean from Huanglongshan. Benshan lüni varies from a pale light yellow to a darker brown tone; can be spotted like above or less spotted. It depends on where it was mined and the firing conditions in the kiln. His teapot may be authentic.

[Chadrinkincat]

For sale:
Fully handmade popcorn from heirloom corn kernels. $100/bag or $1000/12
DM ASAP if you want a bag in time for the show.

[steanze]

Interesting how many antique zisha pots seem to fall into your lap. I wonder if you have any evidence to support that these are genuine ROC pots? Anyways, from the photo it does look like it might be zhuni. Although the true colour and texture are difficult to judge from the photo.

so mudandleaves do you know anything about ROC pots? Because those are very obviously authentic. In case you did not take Bok's and my word, they have all been authenticated by Dr Lv in Taiwan, a published expert on old teapots...

Nope, never claimed to be an antique collector. I would love to see the authenticating document(s) and learn more about the origins of the teapot in that case. Since you're obviously an expert from your attitude, I would also love to hear what aspects make it "obviously authentic" that you can tell from the photo that couldn't be replicated today? I'm not saying it's fake, I'm asking for evidence to support the claim.

Usually in the community authentication works through conversations between experienced collectors, not with written documents. Sometimes there are different views, but many times everyone agrees. The kind of examples Bok has shown are of the sort where everyone agrees, they are fairly uncontroversial. The things that are more controversial and difficult are cases of replicas of mid Qing stuff made during ROC, with old clays and construction techniques. For that sort of thing, you tend to see more disagreement. There is also more money on the line ($10k+)

If someone is seeking help authenticating a teapot, the best approach is to post pictures here and see what the community has to say: https://www.facebook.com/groups/teapot2/?ref=bookmarks

The following elements taken together are strong indicators of authenticity: 1) the texture/color of the clay, 2) the shape nuances, 3) the way different pieces are attached together, 4) details of the lid inside and out, 5) the construction of the interior. What these things are supposed to be like depends on the period of the teapot. Replicas can do a pretty decent jobs at faking one or two of the details, but usually slip up in a few places. Looking at a lot of genuine examples helps to develop a sense for how those features are supposed to be. Finding one feature that looks right is not good enough - the key is checking every feature and finding no features that are off. People who have developed some authentication skills aren't too keen of pointing to all the features very explicitly and listing them one by one, for fear that people making replicas might get too good. Learning opportunities usually arise when someone builds a closer relation with an experienced collector, and the collector concludes that the person is genuinely passionate about older teapots. Even then, in the cases I have seen teaching proceeds by discussing specific teapots, rather than listing authentication properties one by one. I hope this helps a bit, perhaps people can post some examples here and it can be useful and fun.

Here is a little zini from late Qing/ROC:

IMG_20190520_165611464 (2).jpg (74.28 KiB) Viewed 5851 times

[Baisao]

People who have developed some authentication skills aren't too keen of pointing to all the features very explicitly and listing them one by one, for fear that people making replicas might get too good.

This. I keep mum about some of the things I know, though I have been told that the makers of fakes are ahead of us.

One thing that I can't help wondering about is: are teapot authorities in on the faking of teapots?

This has been the case among gongshi collectors in China and suiseki collectors in Japan. Large Chinese benchmark collections have failed scientific scrutiny and the president of the largest suiseki club in Japan was making fakes as recently as 25 years ago. It's still common for these influential people to pass fakes as real.

Let us remember that Michelangelo began as an art forger.

[mudandleaves]

so mudandleaves do you know anything about ROC pots? Because those are very obviously authentic. In case you did not take Bok's and my word, they have all been authenticated by Dr Lv in Taiwan, a published expert on old teapots...

Nope, never claimed to be an antique collector. I would love to see the authenticating document(s) and learn more about the origins of the teapot in that case. Since you're obviously an expert from your attitude, I would also love to hear what aspects make it "obviously authentic" that you can tell from the photo that couldn't be replicated today? I'm not saying it's fake, I'm asking for evidence to support the claim.

Usually in the community authentication works through conversations between experienced collectors, not with written documents. Sometimes there are different views, but many times everyone agrees. The kind of examples Bok has shown are of the sort where everyone agrees, they are fairly uncontroversial. The things that are more controversial and difficult are cases of replicas of mid Qing stuff made during ROC, with old clays and construction techniques. For that sort of thing, you tend to see more disagreement. There is also more money on the line ($10k+)

If someone is seeking help authenticating a teapot, the best approach is to post pictures here and see what the community has to say: https://www.facebook.com/groups/teapot2/?ref=bookmarks

The following elements taken together are strong indicators of authenticity: 1) the texture/color of the clay, 2) the shape nuances, 3) the way different pieces are attached together, 4) details of the lid inside and out, 5) the construction of the interior. What these things are supposed to be like depends on the period of the teapot. Replicas can do a pretty decent jobs at faking one or two of the details, but usually slip up in a few places. Looking at a lot of genuine examples helps to develop a sense for how those features are supposed to be. Finding one feature that looks right is not good enough - the key is checking every feature and finding no features that are off. People who have developed some authentication skills aren't too keen of pointing to all the features very explicitly and listing them one by one, for fear that people making replicas might get too good. Learning opportunities usually arise when someone builds a closer relation with an experienced collector, and the collector concludes that the person is genuinely passionate about older teapots. Even then, in the cases I have seen teaching proceeds by discussing specific teapots, rather than listing authentication properties one by one. I hope this helps a bit, perhaps people can post some examples here and it can be useful and fun.

Here is a little zini from late Qing/ROC:

IMG_20190520_165611464 (2).jpg

I think posting examples here with explanations and evidence would be a great idea. I doubt the people who make replicas are sitting around in Yixing waiting for the secrets to be revealed on this forum. The information is easier to find in China obviously, and examples can be seen in person anyways. Many teapots end up in the classifieds on these forums. I don't see how more evidence could be a bad thing, especially given how murky the antique Yixing teapot world is.

[steanze]

Ok here's a few more!

Late Qing zini:

P1110812 (1).JPG (352.86 KiB) Viewed 5833 times

Qing zini with coarse texture:

P1110809.JPG (350.43 KiB) Viewed 5833 times

ROC Qinghuini:

[steanze]

People who have developed some authentication skills aren't too keen of pointing to all the features very explicitly and listing them one by one, for fear that people making replicas might get too good.

This. I keep mum about some of the things I know, though I have been told that the makers of fakes are ahead of us.

One thing that I can't help wondering about is: are teapot authorities in on the faking of teapots?

This has been the case among gongshi collectors in China and suiseki collectors in Japan. Large Chinese benchmark collections have failed scientific scrutiny and the president of the largest suiseki club in Japan was making fakes as recently as 25 years ago. It's still common for these influential people to pass fakes as real.

Let us remember that Michelangelo began as an art forger.

Possible in some cases. In early ROC masters (people like Zhu Kexin and Gu Jingzhou) made replicas of the works of Shi Dabin and Chen Mingyuan... But it's too much hassle for everyday use ROC pots. If you put that much work into it, better fake a Gu Jingzhou or something at that level.

[steanze]

Here is a late Qing zhuni:

P1110793 (1).JPG (368.66 KiB) Viewed 5830 times

[Dresden]

You see... The key is to not be able to afford any of this stuff. Then authenticity is no longer an issue.