Kunming DRY storage

User avatar
aet
Vendor
Posts: 409
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:56 pm
Location: Kunming ( China )

Tue May 24, 2022 6:25 am

just a screenshot of histogram of our storage from past week. Rain season hasn't started yet though. ( green - humidity ,blue - temp )
Attachments
93C00D7C-9700-441A-8016-E4534BDA5663.png
93C00D7C-9700-441A-8016-E4534BDA5663.png (197.68 KiB) Viewed 3857 times
User avatar
Iizuki
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:23 am

Thu May 26, 2022 6:00 am

This is valuable info for us debating about optimum humidor parameters here in the west :D Do post an update when the rains start!
User avatar
Maerskian
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:41 pm
Location: Atlantis

Thu May 26, 2022 10:39 am

Similar values inside my storage these days as well with slightly higher temp values ( "natural storage" or rather "lazy storage" ; it's just a cabinet with three sliding doors on fron, brick & mortar walls, no props of any kind, just tea piled around, separated by type even though some white cakes are sitting along sheng. Only alien elements are 5 hygrometers ) .

I remember around ... 2 years and a half ago (?) Jay from TeaLifeHK started to check values for my location all of a sudden while being around Discord's CommuniTEA and concluded my location's weather is very similar to Kunming , seems to be the case.

Hoping we have another light tropical summer like last year with stable yet bearable heat & "high humidity" ( 80% on average up to 90% sometimes it's high enough for me ) and barely any clear blue sky ( love it that way ) .

On summer night's i tend to keep my storage's door wide open and be rewarded in the early morning with that wonderful choral mass of aromas; it's a marvelous feeling to experience how alive tea is and how it reacts to temp/humidity conditions, something you can tell with your nose alone, when tea is happy it sings like early morning birds around some beautiful forest.

One quick & deep sniff inside my storage packed full of tea in full bloom these days certainly is a great way to begin any day, even better if followed up by a nice session .
User avatar
wave_code
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:10 pm
Location: Germany

Sun May 29, 2022 8:37 am

would be very interesting to see a year or two in a graph to see how much changes over the seasons. While my rh does fluctuate a little bit with the seasons since I'm storing things in bins with boveda packs the biggest change is temperature over the year, which just on its own seems to make quite the impact.
John_B
Posts: 186
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:42 am
Location: Bangkok
Contact:

Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:55 pm

It must be difficult to interpret how humidity level affects sheng pu'er storage outcomes, without anything but a graph of the humidity level and temperature inside the storage environment, or I guess maybe even then.

I just went through reviewing some sheng from Kunming that was supposedly stored in a more humid local area there, but it was relatively not transitioned by fermentation much at all even for those being 10 to 15 year old versions. Then a secondary touch of dryness or sourness, or woody tone, might be as much a concern as the lack of positive aging transition.

I live in Bangkok, where humidity and heat are oppressive, and it's interesting comparing examples stored here to those out of Malaysia, although I'm not so far along with broad sampling, or any conclusions. Before living here I lived in Honolulu, which was quite humid but much cooler. I wasn't into tea then, so I can't guess at how storage would go, but local libraries had problems with mold issues there, as also occurs here, for books stored long term at our house. The changes that relate to it being much hotter, and that touch more humid here, must be extreme related to sheng pu'er storage outcome. Then how that combines with air contact issues might also be complicated.

By the time you factor in initial tea character as an input, and how it works out storing versions in multiple different environments (over time), it all becomes way too complicated.
User avatar
aet
Vendor
Posts: 409
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:56 pm
Location: Kunming ( China )

Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:13 am

now we have a rain every day and this , I think , is the highest humidity we get here.
Attachments
47DA5271-EA3C-44E5-A1FF-86984C21A263.jpeg
47DA5271-EA3C-44E5-A1FF-86984C21A263.jpeg (179.49 KiB) Viewed 3456 times
User avatar
aet
Vendor
Posts: 409
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:56 pm
Location: Kunming ( China )

Fri Jun 10, 2022 2:12 am

John_B wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:55 pm
Then a secondary touch of dryness or sourness, or woody tone, might be as much a concern as the lack of positive aging transition.
just my personal opinion:

I believe that KM storage is not the best one for tai di cha.

When I lived in Shenzhen I enjoyed locally stored puerh but since I moved to KM ,most of wet stored puerh I can't drink. ( especially shu ). I think that changing the climate plays the role in taste perception and taste preference.

I know that orthodox puerh drinkers will oppose with some history facts like HK ,GZ etc....is the original and only real puerh storage , but I do not stick with this monotonous concept as beer wasn't served chilled until 1870 ( at least Wiki says ) either .

For me KM storage has many advantages as a vendor and drinker :

1) I can read it better ( age , trees , origin , processing and overall quality ) from the actual taste
2) I don't have to be afraid of some mold happen in my storage
3) I don't have to be afraid to send parcel sealed for half year. Wet stored cake might start to go mushroomy in zip lock bag.
4) Customers don't have to bother with some boveda bags ( unless have special reason for that , like living in super dry place ) as the the cakes are not going to loose the moisture in general ( unless in some cold winter when heat is on ) .
I have some cakes form SZ and after 3 years they turned "dust" taste with basement background notes without any beauty they had back then. ...I think that's what the most wet stored puerh fans fighting with.
5) I've started to appreciate wider spectrum of notes which KM stored puerh can offer. Slow transformation of flowery notes to fruity ones in semi aged cakes. Never got that in wet stored stuff coz it's happening so fast and suddenly it all changes to the "same" taste. Like the dominant fruity and wet notes will cover all original stuff. I believe if I drink only wet stored stuff, eventually I'd find some differences ,but I still think KM storage is more readable / distinguishable.

I understand that many people can't stand KM stored shengs, young shengs as their stomach can't handle it. Claims like puerh can be consumed only after 20y of storage or something ...makes sense if we talk about some cheap summer harvest tai di cha.
Many people on some forums shout in loud how KM storage is not the real puerh..etc. ( I think many of them haven't bothered to throw extra $ for real Gushu to understand ) , I think it's kinda "same" topic we can argue about like the puer from other countries ...Laos, Myanmar, Vietnam or India.
It is the business after all, and it develops based on many factors where some traditional thinking and principals are often omitted , then probably even forgotten.

Again, just my very personal opinion based on personal experience with storage.
User avatar
Balthazar
Posts: 706
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:04 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:51 am

Plenty of food for thought, @aet!

Agreed that absolute statements about region X or Y being unfit for aging are not very helpful. And obviously, preferences differ greatly.

For me, Kunming stored puers I have had have mostly been disappointments. This has made me hesitant to go for aged puer teas that I know have spent most of their life there (or in the great majority of regions of Mainland China for that matter), unless it's a tea that's been recommended by someone I know has a similar profile preference to my own. Yet there have been exceptions: The "2001 Mengsa Old Tree Tea" EoT sold a couple years back comes to mind.

This is an astute observation which resonates with my experience:
John_B wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:55 pm
Then a secondary touch of dryness or sourness, or woody tone, might be as much a concern as the lack of positive aging transition.
And this encapsulates most of my thinking about this subject:
John_B wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:55 pm
By the time you factor in initial tea character as an input, and how it works out storing versions in multiple different environments (over time), it all becomes way too complicated.
... In the end, as the saying goes, the proof is in the pu-bing.
User avatar
aet
Vendor
Posts: 409
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:56 pm
Location: Kunming ( China )

Fri Jun 10, 2022 8:02 pm

Balthazar wrote:
Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:51 am
For me, Kunming stored puers I have had have mostly been disappointments.
would you share some examples? no need to say vendor. Just year ( and in which year you have tried ) , location , producer and if you know what leaf was in there.
Andrew S
Posts: 704
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2021 8:53 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:09 am

For what it might be worth, I find information about storage to be interesting to me, even if it has very little to do with my own preferences (I'm one of those freaks who thinks that anything less than wet-storage followed by humid storage is too dry for me...). If anything, Kunming storage looks from the graphs to be perhaps a bit similar to storage where I am (except that it seems to dip here in heat and humidity over Winter).

There clearly seems to be a big market for dry-stored puer (to use the term 'dry-stored' broadly), and I can't complain about that, since there's plenty of puer to go around for everyone these days (I only wish that there were more old wet-stored teas available online...).

@aet: if you don't mind my asking, do you know if there is much 80s or 90s puer that has been stored for all or most of its life in Kunming or similar locations?

I ask because I have also had (factory) teas from the 1990s that were apparently stored in Hong Kong or Taiwan that have been too dry for me, but I am curious if there is anything that has been stored dry for long enough that it might change my opinion. Even a 7542 from EoT from the 80s was a little bit dry for me...

I accept the possibility that dry-stored teas might become much to my liking in a few decades, but I don't think that I'll make it that long... I love the idea of finding an ancient dry-stored puer, but I don't love the idea of waiting that long.

I also accept that many people enjoy young old tree puer teas, which I cannot, because I find them to be too 'cold' and harsh for me (nothing to do with the quality).

Just like how there are many amazing young wines and amazing young whiskies out there (and I can enjoy them, but unfortunately I can't enjoy young puer).

Andrew
User avatar
aet
Vendor
Posts: 409
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:56 pm
Location: Kunming ( China )

Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:39 am

Andrew S wrote:
Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:09 am
aet: if you don't mind my asking, do you know if there is much 80s or 90s puer that has been stored for all or most of its life in Kunming or similar locations?
Very hard to find genuine stuff ( I mean really stored since beginning ) . I've seen some pieces in Xuiaguan Tea Factory Museum when we visited them. I still don't understand why their museum is not for public, such a shame . Very educational.
The most of the old stuff you can find on KM tea markets comes from GZ and if you are lucky enough , can get hands on something what was only 20y in GZ and since 2000y in KM , but most of the stuff appeared to be transferred to here in last 10 year ( puerh hype time ).

Many so called them selves " Tea Masters " opening sort of shops ( looking like studio ) where they educate about puerh and offering overpriced previously wet stored cakes . Some of them are fake , some real , some of them even say that's KM storage etc.
Many of them hit on the same issues :

1) local people don't like wet stored teas coz feels to them like moldy stuff ( I'm probably getting local now ;-) ...but still can enjoy good sheng from GZ or shu from TW I recently had )
2) most of the local people income is too low to purchase a cake ( which might be half month of their salary )

Many of those "masters" started on tea market, then couldn't pay rent there anymore so moved into some apt.blocks and now most of them selling from home.

I've occurred tuo cha from XG 1980 dry stored since beginning. packed 5x100g , boss didn't let anybody to open the tong and sold it like that for something around 50k CNY I think ( that was 5y ago ) . I mean the buyer even couldn't look inside. It was sold by trust from authorized XG vendor.

Another 80's genuine KM stored stuff has my uncle in law , whole box of tuos and he is not sharing.... bastard ;-)

My father in law back in 80's went tu Hui Ze ( town known for Hui minority and beef market ) to buy some beef. When butcher found out that he is from Kunming , he told him can exchange the meat for some puerh. He said no need money but puerh would be cool. That's how rare stuff was back then apparently ( yet not expensive , just small production ) .

My wife grandparents also had a small tea shop in center of KM , called Bi Luo Chun . Back then 100g of good BLCH was more expensive than some tuo of puerh. Good times heh?

Yep, so if you ask me to help you find something from 80's 90's KM stored , nope, I'm not the guy...sorry ;-(

I understand that some people are dark drinkers so any green stuff is just not their cup of tea. I'm not green drinker either but like some fresh Gushu from Nannuo shan , Bada ( I love the apricots there ) , Jingmai or Yiwu ( wonderful mei zi ..CN fruit in there ) , Lavender and Chrysanthemum in Mangfei / some other LC shengs ( when you breathe out trough your nose ) is just something u r not gonna get in aged stuff, just because those notes simply transform / disappear with time. Mei Zi still can survive in pressed Yiwu alright ,but has more "round" taste...which is good, yet different.

The graphs I posted here is just for the reference. We don't have such a humidity all over the year , so it doesn't reflect the annual storage of course.
In winter it can drop down to 15% for example....the lowest I remember anyway.
User avatar
aet
Vendor
Posts: 409
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:56 pm
Location: Kunming ( China )

Sat Jun 11, 2022 9:43 pm

Just recalled and dug out some pictures of tea I recently tried in one semi big TF shop. Supposed to be from around 90's sheng , full Kunming storage. It had those "rotting wood" notes but not musty ,not mushroomy, no laundry or any other wet notes touch but it tasted quite more transformed than some other dry stored shengs from similar period of time ( which were more like camphory - not smokey though, as sometimes being associated - but actual clean camphor with touch of sort of mint..kinda cooling taste at the back throat ) which I've tried till now.
This cake also had bitter and dry texture reflected on my tongue after few cups so I assume some cheap summer harvest , probably that's why still available in resellers hands.
They had another one "tie bing" from 80's ....haven't tried that one yet coz price tag was 10k CNY for 357g cake.

So I completely understand those who like very aged taste , that KM storage is not the way to go.
But I believe that in 10y the cakes of 20y stored in KM might be very good as Kunming people ( vendors ) do not buy such a large quantities like GZ investors so they mostly go for some arbors, gushu rather of 10t of cheap summer harvest tai di cha....Cantonese investment concept ( buy ultra cheap and make big profit in some years ) .
Yunnan people like more green stuff ( it comes also in general food habits ) so they like drink even youg shengs ( those who drink puerh ) , and as the ta di cha is too harsh to drink ( not like green tea ) , the local vendors have to focus on bigger trees which are drinkable even in young stage of ageing.
If some company / vendor makes ta di cha here, is more than likely for resell to some other vendor ( GZ, HK ,TW etc. ) in wholesale for their storage.
Attachments
WechatIMG2003.jpeg
WechatIMG2003.jpeg (210.19 KiB) Viewed 3286 times
WechatIMG2002.jpeg
WechatIMG2002.jpeg (271.8 KiB) Viewed 3286 times
WechatIMG2001.jpeg
WechatIMG2001.jpeg (220.39 KiB) Viewed 3286 times
User avatar
Balthazar
Posts: 706
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:04 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Sun Jun 12, 2022 2:55 am

aet wrote:
Fri Jun 10, 2022 8:02 pm
would you share some examples? no need to say vendor. Just year ( and in which year you have tried ) , location , producer and if you know what leaf was in there.
Most of this is stuff I consumed back in 2013-16 and I generally don't keep notes, so I don't have a list of examples. But a mix of big brand taidi blends and arbor stuff, with the majority in the former category. And most of it only of 10-15 years of storage at the time. Come to think of it, I did find a KM stored 2006 Mengku Rongshi DXS I had back in 2014 quite satisfactory (i.e. none of the negative "dry storage characteristics" I find myself reacting to). Of course this one hadn't even aged a decade by the time I consumed it.

Perhaps it's a sample size thing. Or, as touched upon, personal preferences and one's bodily constitution. I mostly "drink with my body", and it is here my main issue with dry and/or young, be it taidi or arbor, has presented itself.
Andrew S
Posts: 704
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2021 8:53 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:47 pm

Thanks @aet. Something I've wondered about is where and when the market for aged puer from the 2000s and onwards will develop. I think that people had a lot of hope around a decade ago that the big increase in puer production recently would mean that aged tea becomes more widely-available and less expensive compared to the relatively small volume of 1990s and earlier tea that's still generally available, but it doesn't look like that has happened yet. Presumably, a lot of the tea is in private hands. I also wonder how much of the modern teas are going to be traditionally-stored, but that's a different topic.

As to ageing, I agree that it probably depends on whether someone wants an aged flavour and character, or if someone wants to see their tea develop. I suppose that people who enjoy drinking young puer will enjoy seeing it develop in dry storage, whereas I can only drink aged puer and I don't like young puer, so I have had to make my peace with knowing that storing my own tea in Sydney would never result in it becoming similar to something that's gone through wet and traditional Hong Kong storage.

As others have said, it will be interesting to see updates on this post over the course of the year; I'm sure that a lot of people who store their tea at home, or who use controlled humidity environments, will want to know how their storage compares to Kunming storage.

Andrew
User avatar
aet
Vendor
Posts: 409
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:56 pm
Location: Kunming ( China )

Sun Jun 12, 2022 11:56 pm

Andrew S wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:47 pm
1990s and earlier tea that's still generally available,
I'm always asking my self , how much of it is actually legit? Some years ago , there was a GZ vendor on our KM tea market wandering and offering something in loose leaf called sheng from 90's. Relatively cheap compare to prices I know back then. I can't judge by taste as I'm not familiar with that particular storage but he managed to sell around 50kg of it ( maybe more , but that's how much I was able to trace as those showed up in hands of my few friends ..vendors on the market ) . Then they re-sell it with tag 80's or 70's , some of them pack it into the bamboo baskets with some old looking nei fei ..etc.

After all that stuff I've seen I don't trust any wrapper or any famous name. In China ( probably in all Asia ) , more famous / legit you get the bigger balls you have , because the questionable stuff nobody will question if purchased from you.

The accelerated ageing is very doable these days even in Yunnan. I haven't seen the place yet, but my friend told me that there is a place not far from Yuxi. It is a storage with glass roof ( for better heat in ) , ventilation and humidifiers working 24/7. We have a sun here like 90% of the year ( except rain season ) and if right temperatures with humidity guaranteed, some magic happens.

I had a tea with one of the suppliers here and it was sheng tuo , by taste I though it's KM storage like 4-6y , he told me its only less than year in GZ air circ. controlled storage ( no wet notes whatsoever ...clean and fruity ) .
He laughing said to me " I do not trust labels anymore " ;-)

I'm idiot that I didn't take one for educational purposes back then.
Post Reply