Storage Failure

oeroe
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Location: Finland

Wed Jun 28, 2023 3:00 am

This has been an interesting thread.

I have a few data points to add to the discussion.

I live in Finland, which is due to the need to warm our houses most of the year in practice extremely arid for pu'er. I have been drinking tea from about 2008, and pu'er has been an interest from quite early on. When I started to learn more on tea, there was really no pumidor discussion, people mostly tried the Asian wisdom of cardboard boxes, and then few experimented with wooden cabinets with water bowls for slight added humidity. I noticed that especially aged tea lost a lot of the soft, round character very fast, and there is a kind of sharp astringency which comes fast to old cakes which have been with me for a while. I didn't hoard much tea as the storage seemed like an issue.
2015 I went to Taiwan for the first time, and I brought back some more tea, and I started to think more seriously on storage. As I went more often to Asia and my language skills improved, I started to have so much tea around I just needed a solution. I opted for bovedas and ziplocks as temporary solution. I thought about plastic bins (I would have liked to store more tea together, as the Asian wisdom suggested), but I couldn't find a solution which didn't reek of plastic. I still haven't found a bin I'd be comfortable using, and the ziplock strategy has worked ok in the meanwhile.

With ziplocks, I have noticed (as have many others) that they leek moisture. I compensate by having more bovedas, and recharging them often. The cakes which spend a long time in the bag seem to do well, they don't develop the sharp astringency, and there are some positive signs of tastes changing. When a particular stack of cakes starts to go too low, I start to notice a deterioration, and if I open a specific cake often, the same happens. Shou seems to be much more resistant to these changes, and sheng which I've bought young has worked pretty ok, but the old trad shengs are the challenge.

I also tried some humidity-proof bags like mylar bags, but I had some moulding issues with the bags that were closed for too long time with the boveda inside. Leaky-ziplocks and frequent recharging seem to be safer.

I have been consciously trying to drink through my current stash for some years, and it has been surprisingly slow. Within the next few years I need to find a new solution, before I bring more tea to Finland. I'm thinking that I need to find a suitably non-smelly bin, maybe an old freezer, and make a rule to only open it 1/month or something. I would bring out a cake or a few quarters for use. Those I could store in a mylar with boveda or something for the short term. For the mid-term storage the bin which I don't open too often seems safest. A warming element might be a good idea.

For the long term, I have thought it is safest to keep the tea in Asia.


Another reflection is that some of my early cake purchases have done quite well. Some EoT cakes in the old style wrappers (when they had those blank white wrappers with some characters and a red stamp for the village name in English) are quite good now. Some harsher teas, like some dayi recipe cakes are still horrible. Those teas with strong character but low initial astringency seem to have done best.

As an extreme data point, I have a brick of heicha, originally exported to Mongolia and brought to Finland in the early 20th century, and stored here in an attic since then. It tastes very dusty, like an old tome, but there is an interesting buttery taste to it and a rather strong presence. Patiance is very poor, after a rinse there are two or three tasty steepings, then it fades off very abruptly. Not exactly a storage success, but not as complete failure as I would have thought.
Last edited by oeroe on Fri Jun 30, 2023 1:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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aet
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Wed Jun 28, 2023 6:04 am

oeroe wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2023 3:00 am
I'm thinking that I need to find a suitably non-smelly bin, maybe an old freezer, and make a rule to only open it 1/month or something. I would bring out a cake or a few quarters for use. Those I could store in a mylar with boveda or something for the short term.
The neat sollution is just any non-odor cabinet made of material which doesn't absorb the moisture ( like wood for example ) , which has a sealed door ( lke fridge or freezer.
My friend found 2nd hand wine cabinet .
I dont know how to get direct URL to the post on our FB page, hope that one works.

<iframe src="https://www.facebook.com/plugins/post.p ... &width=500" width="500" height="723" style="border:none;overflow:hidden" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="true" allow="autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; picture-in-picture; web-share"></iframe>
oeroe
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Wed Jun 28, 2023 10:56 am

aet wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2023 6:04 am

I dont know how to get direct URL to the post on our FB page, hope that one works.
Often there's a link in the "share via messenger" -menu, at least on desktop. That link worked as well.

But yes. Wine cabinet or dense enough wood might work well.
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aet
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Wed Jun 28, 2023 7:41 pm

oeroe wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2023 10:56 am

But yes. Wine cabinet or dense enough wood might work well.
I woudn't suggest any wood at all. Wood absorbs the moisture and doesn't give it out , so you would have to keep some water inside ( sponge or small glass ) . At the same time , wood has some aroma and wet wood even boosted aroma. That will affect the tea.
The best is non odor plastic , glazed clay ( like jar ) or stainless steel , or something odor neutral which can't suck / absorbe the moisture.
Important is to keep the space around the cakes. That's why Im not fan of those whatever packs.
More moister = more space around the tea required. The moist has to be evenly disolved in the air and not concentrated at small area/s in high density.
If you have something in zip lock bag and high humidity, it's the recepie for mold or Jin Hua ( golden flowers ) inside of the cake. I understand it is ithe best sollution in matter of the space and cost efficiency ,but for the long run, I don't know.
You have to let the cakes breathe in their environment ( which you create with storage space ) and not stew them up in zip lock packs.
Kelly
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Fri Jun 30, 2023 1:34 am

oeroe wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2023 3:00 am
This has been an interesting thread.

I have a few data points to add to the discussion.

I live in Finland, which is due to the need to warm our houses most of the year in practice extremely arid for pu'er. I have been drinking tea from about 2008, and pu'er has been an interest from quite early on. When I started to learn more on tea, there was really no pumidor discussion, people mostly tried the Asian wisdom of cardboard boxes, and then few experimented with wooden cabinets with water bowls for slight added humidity. I noticed that especially aged tea lost a lot of the soft, round character very fast, and there is a kind of sharp astringency which comes fast to old cakes which have been with me for a while. I didn't hoard much tea as the storage seemed like an issue...
Thanks for adding your experience. I noticed the same with regard to how the tea changed unfavorably. As for a container, I've been using and could recommend Coleman camping coolers. I'd had two in the garage for years, so any plastic odor had long since faded away and I find they work well for the purpose:
Tea storage coolers_600.jpg
Tea storage coolers_600.jpg (208.01 KiB) Viewed 5875 times
Tea storage, small interior_800.jpg
Tea storage, small interior_800.jpg (198.15 KiB) Viewed 5875 times
Note, I no longer cut the mylar bags, but keep them sealed within the coolers to reduce contact with my 'foreign' air. The jar pictured within is a mason jar with a cut-out section of recycled plastic walmart bag inside (which is breathable). It contains a salt/water mixture I found on-line that keeps the rH between 68-70% at virtually no cost and only requires changing a couple of times a year. I would be happy to share this.

While all of this has greatly helped to preserve the cakes, it is not yet ideal. I'd mentioned earlier that I'd share the results of looking into vac sealing and found these:
Zwilling vac seal.jpg
Zwilling vac seal.jpg (20.34 KiB) Viewed 5875 times
I have only just ordered these and will test and report. After opening a fresh cake, the plan is to leave some tea in the mylar bag, in the humidor for daily use and re-vacuum seal some in the bags above in the humidor to store in the interim. Lastly I'll leave the unopened vac-sealed teas in the basement where it's also cool and bring them upstairs for 24hr before opening to ensure no condensation was introduced. Note, Hojo teas ship with a small packet labelled as '"ageless" oxygen absorber' within each vacuum sealed packaging - even samples. Opening these vac-sealed packs fills the room with tea aroma upon opening. My goal is to get as close to that as possible, so I can enjoy my tea as close to 'as-intended' as the years go by.
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aet
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Mon Sep 02, 2024 9:10 pm

Sorry for outsourcing to another forum but I have found this educational.
https://www.reddit.com/r/puer/comments/ ... g_tuo_cha/
For the full info, it is ball shaped tuo in bamboo leaf, very hard pressed.
https://www.yunnancraft.com/en/sheng-pu ... o-cha-200g
Hope nobody will take it here as advertising , especially when in this case it is not good ad for us anyway ( although not our fault , the rest of tea I have at home is without any mold ..natural KM storage ).
I don't want to comment anything below that post because I don't like the way people interact to each other there ( or generally on Reddit ) , so I write it here.
The major issue with storage is the proper ventilation ( air around ). With increased humidity you have to also increase the air flow. There is no specific number / formula for that as it also depends on the leaf, how hard it's pressed and previously stored.
I can say only from my Czech ( EU ) friend experience who has a small wine fridge ( without cooling elements of course ) , opening only when want to drink tea ( every day or few times a day ) which keeps humidity average around 50% all over the year. And his cakes are safely ageing.
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/UUTennYmX1o8rfRY/
The whole idea is to have some air cushion around which will absorb the peaks and drops of humidity each time you open the seal. In my opinion, those Boveda packs don't have that air gap big enough for longer term storage ( especially if you are not opening it on daily / weekly basis but like few times a year ).
Of course that might vary from case to case, so please also share your experience and opinions.
.m.
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Tue Sep 03, 2024 12:51 pm

This is a perfect example and many people have reported the same experience: mylar sealed bag and Boveda pack lead eventually to mold. At 69%RH and 20C the dew point calculator estimate it to 236 days http://www.dpcalc.org/ so opening it every 4 months to let it air out would probably be ok.

On the other hand plastic ziplocks have usually just enough breathability so that the air is not completely stagnant and the Boveda will slowly dry out.

Letting the tea touch the Boveda is also not a good idea as the moisture can concentrate there.
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Balthazar
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Tue Sep 03, 2024 3:06 pm

My guess would be temp swings (especially cooler temps with corresponding RH spikes, which will be very slow to decrease again with Bovedas) as the main culprit here.

Bovedas (or similar systems) + mylar still have the best balance of good results with very little effort involved (for the typical western indoors climate) IMO, but it's not 100% fail proof and especially so if you're storage environment has temperature swings and/or you keep your teas sealed for years at a time.

(Of course if one is content with how one's puer ages at around 50% RH or so, and can sustain that humidity without any humidification, then no need to bother)

Edit: Read through the comments now, the OP claims the temperatures in his storage box are "regulated" (without specifying how).
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aet
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Tue Sep 03, 2024 10:28 pm

The friend , I previously mentioned , he puts a small wet sponge or glass of water in this wine fridge if humidity drops bellow 50% . The temperature is based on room temperature ( in winter using heater though ) which doesn't drop below 20C I believe.
With the Reddit OP I don't know many details , but I remember we had a customer who bought 10pcs. of those saying he wants to put them in Hot Box ( aka Pumidor ) . That was like also 4y ago, , haven't heard from him since then.
This particular ball is seriously hard compressed so , I believe , designed for GZ future storage ( high heat & humidity ) , although I found interesting taste even when it was new.
But in my understanding of Boveda packs , their purpose is to preserve previously humid stored tea ( protect it from drying out in some extended time ) rather than to take KM stuff ageing in there.
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sheep.payday2
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Wed Sep 04, 2024 3:28 am

aet wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2024 9:10 pm
The major issue with storage is the proper ventilation ( air around ). With increased humidity you have to also increase the air flow.
This is a lesson that could (have been) learnt from orchid hobbyists… when growing, say, cloud forest species in a vivarium at >80% RH, one must take care of ventilation and air movement or the inhabitants will be quick to pick up a fungal infection (folks typically install a PC fan or several).
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