Where Do You Go For High Quality?

[Ethan Kurland]

Cultivars and terroir matter to me. Foremost, the tea must be delicious. However, I do want to know specifics regarding a tea's origin: cultivar, location, date range of the harvest. These details help me decide if another tea is something I might want to try. For example, If I had a bad experience with a tea that picked within weeks after a newsworthy rain event, I'll avoid buying teas that were picked after newsworthy rain events. Or if a cultivar is known for having certain characteristics, then I'll be all the more certain to appreciate who those characteristics are presented in that specific tea.

I appreciate all you say in the paragraph above. I guess all of that is too much for me in a few ways. Acquisition is simple for me. Some examples: My main source for tea will find me some of the better gaoshan of Taiwan and provide it affordably. I accept that as one of the better "of its type"; relate some of what I taste; & suggest parameters. I don't go much beyond. I would like to just use my name for it, Perfect, (named not because it is the best gaoshan, but because of its flexibility in brewing -- quick steeping showcases sweetness, long steeping shows deeper fresh, vegetal.....-- and its affordability); however, because people like to know, it's from 1600-1800m up Shanlanxi. I should say less about the Dayuling because my source says little. I think they were joking years back when in Tainan I, an amateur sitting with experts, ventured to talk about altitude. I was told the DYL that I was buying was from 2400m high (but I think there is no tea grown in that area higher than 2200m). Anyway, of course, I could not understand the Mandarin that preceded some chuckles. By the time I returned to USA jet-lagged, in my head it was a 2400m tea! No matter, because everyone who gets that DYL, likes it.

There are too many steps between the leaves on the trees to the leaves in one's pot. If one finds the same cultivar, location, & date range of the harvest of a tea that he liked before, that second purchase may not be for the "same" tea. There is the time of day a tea was picked, was it processed identically? etc. What you wrote Baisao about information, makes it more likely you can avoid mistakes etc., but the easier practice for me, is that when I find a tea that I like very much, I will stock up. (All from the same drawer or barrel or whatever, so to speak.)

It is much easier for me to buy well and enjoy tea than to describe it or write about it. Yet I try. Life is funny. Cheers

[Guy Juan]

. The mods suggested I check the “Vendors” section for high quality teas but that just seems silly considering they are TRYING TO SELL THE TEA! And I could not find the info I was searching for.

Reading my list of teas on my thread in vendors section, I see that I do not always mention altitude (& some heights are 200m off, I'll correct that soon) & that I usually don't list cultivars. This may not suit someone on a quest that might require knowing about teas encountered more than getting the best tea. This worries me in general, not just for you. A vendor may have a wonderful tea to sell. Why or how he got it, why that tea is so delicious--does it matter really?


More to your reference of your experience with coffee being compared to tea, the very best coffee from Columbia tastes to me like almost all of the coffee from the Boliven plateau of Laos. There most of the coffee was organic because for so long there was no money for fertilizers & pesticides which were not needed for a profitable yield anyway. There the farms are not easily accessible & there is no hotel comfortable enough for organizations that might come to certify the coffee as organically grown. That coffee that is most delicious (though not "exceptionally unique and fantastic") didn't have the labels that some people want to see because people of the certifying organizations could not fly to a nearby airport & sleep in a 3-star hotel.


Cheers

Knowing the altitude and cultivars etc. is not just to “know more about the tea”. It’s information that tells you some general characteristics and flavor profiles you may expect given the growing and harvesting conditions. At least for coffee this is true, I’m assuming it’s true for tea.

As for the coffee thing you mentioned... I do not buy “certified” or “organic” labeled coffees. Usually that’s a red flag for low quality coffees. In fact, any coffee with a brand name or marketing labels are usually lower quality. Like “heart healthy” on a Cheerios box. Simply contains no cholesterol and has fiber so it’s now “heart healthy”. Definitely not too healthy at all though. What I look for is a good roaster who knows how to source great coffee and roast it properly depending on the bean. A roaster that lists the farm it came from, elevation, rainfall, harvest date etc. This helps me choose the coffee I want to buy by telling me what to expect in the cup based on growing conditions, processing stations, region etc. I’ve never had 2 coffees taste exactly the same when fresh and brewed properly. Even from the same farm, different harvest taste different.

I’m just hoping to find the same thing for tea that I found for coffee. A trusted source where if they list the shading period as 4 weeks, it’s actually 4 weeks and not 6 days lol. A vendor that sells high quality tea with good QC and stores and handles everything correctly and knows enough about tea that when they choose a lot from a farmer or processor, they know what to look for in that particular varietal. It’s just hard because there are 10billion vendors selling tea and it could waste a lot of money ordering from the wrong ones.

[Guy Juan]

Names: yes, in China we use local names. Like Snow Dragon would be Xue Long for example, Sometimes much longer like u said, 3 names and more. Like Yin Si - "silver needles" or Yu Luo - "jade screw" and if you put an expression Dan Ya - "single tips" before or after it, you will get the highest grade of this tea. Usually the tea name is bounded with it's appearance but in order to distinguish location of production, the name of the place can be used in name as well. Like Lincang, Pu'er etc.
Writing comes from Chinese pinyin which is mostly 2-4 letter words Bi Luo Chun ...etc. , some vendors translate it into the English like Jade Spirals / snails ..etc. Some vendors ( usually westerners ) connect the words like "meng hai " Menghai ...

This was actually very helpful! I did not know Yin Si meant silver needle...or any of the others you mentioned. It sort of makes it a lot simpler because now if I see these phrases I will know it’s describing something that can be unaversally used for all teas. I’ll keep an eye out for more repeating words and phrases. Thanks!

[aet]

just correction , I made a mistake : "yin si" - silver thread , "yin zhen" - silver needles .
usually 1st comes name of place ( if applied ) , 2nd is color definition and 3rd is the shape ( which also specify in some cases the grade )

color definition :

Yin - silver ( used for green and white tea , generally with lots of tips )
Jin - gold ( used for red (black) and sometimes shu puerh tea , generally with lots of tips )
Yu - jade ( used usually for green teas )

those come with combinations based on shapes:

Zhen - needle ( usually hard spiky tips or rolled leafs in shape of needle )
Si - thread ( usually soft , narrow , small / tiny , hair like tips and small leafs ) - high grade
Ya - ( ya tou ) - means tip / bud - that is usually used when tips are big and fat , but not golden rule. - high grade
luo - screw - snail shaped tips and leafs

Please note that there is a bit tolerance, if can be said like that, especially among the shape naming . Some vendors call Jin Si a tea as the other would call Jin Ya , because they have different look on how big/ fat or tinny tips tea should have in order to classify for that particular name.

Also variations like Song Zhen ( black tea ) - pine needles is an exception from the model I wrote above .
there are more names, I just wrote some of them. hope that helps.

[Ethan Kurland]

. A vendor that sells high quality tea with good QC and stores and handles everything correctly and knows enough about tea that when they choose a lot from a farmer or processor, they know what to look for in that particular varietal. It’s just hard because there are 10billion vendors selling tea and it could waste a lot of money ordering from the wrong ones.

Are you opening a chain of teahouses?
Anyway, what you say about quality control etc. is obvious.. One can sample & buy 600 grams of a tea (or teas); have them packed as he chooses, handled properly; then, store them properly. It is not a big deal. Some vendors offer top quality in categories more than for specific cultivars. If you are really looking for quality as opposed to finding characteristics written about a particular cultivar to be in packet of a tea with that name on it to be there, you would have a better chance to enjoy drinking tea, in my opinion.
Anyway, in a few moments I am adding 2 teas of this Spring season to my list & if you care to look at my thread, you will see that I will say little about them. For here, I will say that they are not a waste of $. Welcome to teaforum. If you give up tea & start on grain-based beverages, I suggest Postum. Cheers

[Ethan Kurland]

Hi, i am 30 year old guy living in Thailand enjoying my various tea's,!

I suggest you contact Tea-Village which is operating out of Chiangmai now. Vee knows tea (as does Lita but she just had a baby). Sells online but still answers phone calls I believe. Cheers

[Ethan Kurland]

here, but if it weren't for the price of intercontinental calls, I'd love to have a chat with you. You strike me as a kind and balanced person, perhaps one of the kindest I've ever met on the Internet.

Thank you for that saying that. We might talk sometime. I do buy lottery tickets & hopefully one day can see Northwestern Italy. I enjoyed time in Italy in 1984 & cannot believe that I never got back there. On the roof of the cathedral in Milan I watched a union in the square quickly organize a strike because a female factory worker had been groped by a foreman who had done it before. Really exciting to see such fast mobilization to stand up for a co-worker. I had worked at a place in the USA where no one would band together to stop various abuses. I quit after a few weeks. A few years later I learned workers were getting their revenge by stealing from the place so much that it almost went bankrupt. Cheers

[Baisao]

If you give up tea & start on grain-based beverages, I suggest Postum.

What elevation do they grow their grains?

[Guy Juan]

I tried a Bi Luo Chun from uptontea and one from teavivre. Both very different from each other. The teavivre was much more green and vegetal. The upton was more of a “chicken broth” for lack of tea lingo. I preferred the “chicken broth” much more. For a green vegetal type flavor I can imagine there is better than what the other Biluochun delivered.

Has anyone tried uptontea’s “Pi Lo Chun”? Not endorsing them but would like to know what term to use for the “broth” type flavor I get out of it.

Got a lot of tea on the way and checking out Pu-erhs, greens, oolongs, I even ordered a jasmine Biluochun to see what jasmines all about. Fun times.

[Bok]

@Guy Juan Umami? Sounds like it could be what you refer to as broth. In the end the goal is to be understood, everyone can understand chicken broth

[aet]

Please note that processing and storage plays important role of the green tea as a final product. In Yunnan we use various techniques of processing which usually are distinguished with roasting, drying temperatures and times. More vegetable and green taste would be specific for tea leaf processed by "Hong Qing " and kind nutty , woody is "Chao Qing" . Some teas have specific method "assigned" as a standard but not golden rule. I had Bi Luo Chun processed both methods, yet temp. can also slightly wary based on producers preference or customer order query.
Storage is very important if we talk about loose tea leaf or leaf being packed in the shop where it's sold. ( since you can't possibly know if the vendor packing it into the sealed bag right after you order or it has been done before in place of production...unless is somehow stamped by factory ) .
Same bi luo chun from Kunming or HK,GZ,SZ,SH..where humidity is fairly high , will be different in taste within 1 month. Unless the pack is actually vacuum sealed ( simple zip lock just help a bit ) , there is no way to escape humidity ( air condition is just very little help ) . I lived in Shenzhen before moved to Kunming so talking from personal experience. Some vendors claim ventilated , air-conditioned storage etc. That's the good and right way to store tea in places like that , still ...the tea will have "shi cang" ..wet storage notes. There is no harm of it and some tea drinkers love the tea like that , since moisture amplifies original scent of the tea leaf. It's like a sponge , release scent much intensive when it's wet than dry.
So what Im trying to say here is, that it's not correct to compare tea quality of two or more vendors from completely different locations. Two vendors might have same quality tea from even same supplier , but taste might be different because place of storage.
You need to buy a sample and decide which one is better for you , but not necessary has to be associated with better quality.
Im not a pro on green teas, but in certain cases it's not far from the pu-erh (sheng puerh) in which I focus more.
I cant say anything about cultivars, but must say that some greens from high alt. (2000m) places we tried, are actually nice. And as it's common in tea , the leafs usually luck ugly , not attractive like those tipsy Yin Si or other Dan Ya grade ( full buds ) teas , which in fairness , require pesticides and fertilizers in order to grow in such a bud density . Even "Yin Keng Shi Hao " variety which is tipsy and used for Dianhong teas.
Usually lower grades of Biluochun are better than those super-duper-high grade quality , which is expensive due to high costs of material and labor , rather than quality it self. ( pick up and processing 1kg of buds or 1kg of leafs has different time and labor costs )
So my advice, don't buy by "eyes" , buy by "taste" , and use simple logic when purchasing online ( like free shipping marketing...nobody works for free, not even China post

[Guy Juan]

Guy Juan Umami? Sounds like it could be what you refer to as broth. In the end the goal is to be understood, everyone can understand chicken broth

Awesome Thanks! I had an inkling but wanted to be sure.

[Guy Juan]

just correction , I made a mistake : "yin si" - silver thread , "yin zhen" - silver needles .
usually 1st comes name of place ( if applied ) , 2nd is color definition and 3rd is the shape ( which also specify in some cases the grade )

color definition :

Yin - silver ( used for green and white tea , generally with lots of tips )
Jin - gold ( used for red (black) and sometimes shu puerh tea , generally with lots of tips )
Yu - jade ( used usually for green teas )

those come with combinations based on shapes:

Zhen - needle ( usually hard spiky tips or rolled leafs in shape of needle )
Si - thread ( usually soft , narrow , small / tiny , hair like tips and small leafs ) - high grade
Ya - ( ya tou ) - means tip / bud - that is usually used when tips are big and fat , but not golden rule. - high grade
luo - screw - snail shaped tips and leafs

Please note that there is a bit tolerance, if can be said like that, especially among the shape naming . Some vendors call Jin Si a tea as the other would call Jin Ya , because they have different look on how big/ fat or tinny tips tea should have in order to classify for that particular name.

Also variations like Song Zhen ( black tea ) - pine needles is an exception from the model I wrote above .
there are more names, I just wrote some of them. hope that helps.

This is the info that should be pinned right on the front page of this site! These are the things newbies like me need to know to avoid a lot of confusion starting out. Thanks!!

[Guy Juan]

So what Im trying to say here is, that it's not correct to compare tea quality of two or more vendors from completely different locations. Two vendors might have same quality tea from even same supplier , but taste might be different because place of storage.
You need to buy a sample and decide which one is better for you , but not necessary has to be associated with better quality.
Im not a pro on green teas, but in certain cases it's not far from the pu-erh (sheng puerh) in which I focus more.
I cant say anything about cultivars, but must say that some greens from high alt. (2000m) places we tried, are actually nice. And as it's common in tea , the leafs usually luck ugly , not attractive like those tipsy Yin Si or other Dan Ya grade ( full buds ) teas , which in fairness , require pesticides and fertilizers in order to grow in such a bud density . Even "Yin Keng Shi Hao " variety which is tipsy and used for Dianhong teas.
Usually lower grades of Biluochun are better than those super-duper-high grade quality , which is expensive due to high costs of material and labor , rather than quality it self. ( pick up and processing 1kg of buds or 1kg of leafs has different time and labor costs )
So my advice, don't buy by "eyes" , buy by "taste" , and use simple logic when purchasing online ( like free shipping marketing...nobody works for free, not even China post

Right, comparing different ...everything...will yield different results. Even from the same plant but picked a different day. BUT....it will give me an idea of the range that each type will have. Now I know that the umami is not necessarily present in all Biluochuns. Maybe I’ll find out that it’s rare in Biluochun who knows...but it’s good to get the range down for each to help me figure out what I like and don’t like.

We taste with our eyes first. I think looking at the leaf for size, texture, color, shape and everything else can be a very good way to choose your tea. If you like darker oolongs then don’t buy the extremely light colored one pictured. I’m actually not sure how to “buy by taste” when you have no idea until you first buy it.

Unfortunately I liked the more expensive biluochun a hell of a lot better. But it’s only $7.00 more per 100g so not bad at all!

[aet]

If 7$ for 100g 1tip 1 leaf grade and not in last years discounted price - that's very good offer .
"buy by taste" is to buy a sample. Pictures might be deceiving. Lots of light in the Light Box and tea looks very different on your table later during the day light , which also vary (temp. light ) .
Of course you can distinguish obvious colors and see if tea was light or dark oxidized , I wasn't about that. I was about those beautiful tipsy teas which not necessary have to be better than ugly / naturally ( in comparing ) looking tea leafs. Grade is a choice and also personal preference , not the major sign of the tea quality as all product, let alone that you would necessarily have to like it. To me top grade BLCH is has no "body" . tips are nice and mild taste, but I prefer bitter with sweet after taste like sheng puerh . Lower grade of BLCH have that, or tea like cui ming, which doesnt have that many tips either an bigger leafs are involved.
We have regular Kunming customers coming to shop , they usually buy lower grade for drinking and higher grade for giving a present ( coz look good )
Same with black teas. All those tipsy beautiful teas are good seller but I like just ugly looking big leafs from arbor tea trees ( also promoted by some vendors like Gu Shu ) . The taste reminds me a black tea a use to drink in childhood. Those "tuned up" concepts of blacks for double price are not for me, and I have spent quite of the time in Fengqing to source the good ones.
Same with green teas like in Pu'er or Gen Ma , private producers or big factories. Im not green tea drinker so "unami" is not for me either ( if that defines green tea lover ) . I have tried matcha - too green for me.

As I said, there is no bad/ good choice. Just personal preference=choice. From marketing point of view I see on sales, that beautiful teas are always sell better , yet the experienced tea drinker will tell you that final taste is not about the "cover of the book".