Qi

[Tillerman]

"There is no such thing as 'cha qi;' there are tea flavors and aromas but no mystical 'qi'"

Agree? Disagree? Discuss.

[pedant]

wow. popcorn, anyone?

personally, i don't 'believe in' the mystical tea high or chaqi (if both are what you are referring to). i think there are primary psychoactive effects from caffeine, secondary effects from theanine, and then tertiary-at-best effects from how the aromas and experience of drinking it in general make you feel. like how having a bowl of soup can ship you back in a daydream to being a kid and eating your mom's cooking or something. i realize many would disagree with that.
this isn't a conviction or anything. i just know i've never felt high from drinking tea in the way that i've seen some people write about it, and i'm definitely open to changing my mind.

[Ethan Kurland]

but no mystical 'qi'"

Agree? Disagree? Discuss.

"mystical" changes everything. One can say LSD is not mystical, the chemicals got people high with their effect and how they define that reaction to the chemicals was not scientific or whatever. Nonetheless, many people said taking LSD trips was mystical. So effected by tea to be tea drunk or in some state obviously feels mystical to some people some of the time.

For myself, I am sure of 2 things: easier to happen before and easier to happen with pu-erh or super-session of gaoshan. Overall not something to talk about when talking about qualities of a tea. Too subjective.

You have power, Tillerman. You commanded, "discuss" and it got discussed. Do I have power? Respond to my previous post! Cheers

[.m.]

.... how .... it in general make you feel.

I think what Pedant said actually pretty much describes 'qi', at least the way i understand it as a concept. In the context of tea, qi is the energy that you feel in your body, the way how the tea affects you. And as there are many ways tea can make you feel, there is not one qi but many. So when somebody says that this and that tea has a strong qi, it alone doesn't say almost anything if the nature of this qi is not specified.
There is the caffeine buzz, there is the jittery nasty feeling (from pesticides?), ..... and there is also this blissful relaxing feeling. It is the latter one that, i think, one often means by 'chaqi'. It doesn't need to be a strong feeling, one doesn't need to be tea drunk (whatever that means), one may not even realize it happens, just feel a little more more peaceful. And even though there are some chemical compounds behind all this, one cannot really reduce feeling to chemicals.
Also to talk about qi of a tea, it should to be experienced consistently by the drinker; if one has only one session with a given tea, it might be quite difficult to say to which extent was the feeling induced by the tea, and to which extent by other factors.

[.m.]

Just to add: a plain cup of hot water can also be quite relaxing The 'qi' of tea should offer something extra.
Not to mention the undisputable 'beer qi'.

[Bok]

And even though there are some chemical compounds behind all this, one cannot really reduce feeling to chemicals.

You actually can. Any feeling if you go the root will always have to do with biochemical reactions. Even the most powerful ones like love and hate.

But then that would be terribly rational and boring, so sometimes a little romantic feeling is a better explanation for the soul(another “whatever that is”), than the pure science on which everything in life is based on.

The concept of qi is a vast one in Chinese culture and there are indeed a lot of them. Just go on any martial arts forum and you will be drowned by controversial opinions on the matter. Personally, I sometimes feel “something” with some teas but do not care what it is and what is behind it, for me first and foremost, taste is of the essence. The rest might be a nice plus, or just the annoying thing that keeps me from sleeping...

[d.manuk]

I equate qi = tea drunk. I haven't had a tea that's made me feel good in a way where I wasn't feeling some kind of tea drunkenness so I equate those feelings as feeling qi, and I don't think negative effects like a foggy mind would be described as a tea having qi.

In the past 3 years, I've only had 4 or 5 teas that I consider having qi. They were all puer, except for one high quality tie luo han. All of the teas that affected me this way were pretty expensive, and I believe they were all made from older trees or were aged a while (or both). Quite frankly I don't think it's simply a combination of caffeine and theanine that produces this effect. I was also in most cases able to experience the same effect when drinking the teas a second time.

[Brent D]

Webster dictionary describes it as such:
vital energy that is held to animate the body internally and is of central importance in some Eastern systems of medical treatment (such as acupuncture) and of exercise or self-defense (such as tai chi)

I dont think that tea itself holds some magical force like quality, but I do feel that tea can react in our body to make us feel different. I shoved 12 grams of sheng in a pot once. I sure felt a bunch of qi that day!
I also feel that this has more to do with the way a person reacts rather than the tea itself. Some people may be more sensitive to whatever substance is causing this reaction.
Of course, there is also the way the mind perceives the tea as well. I know that when Ive had a long day, and I make a cuppa, some times I just nail it. I do everything in the brewing just right, and I know it when I taste it. Makes me close my eyes and smile and I just feel great.

[Teachronicles]

I've never really put my thoughts together on this. I know I've experienced energy before in other living things, a particular yoga teacher of mine whose presence just made you feel at peace and comfortable, after yoga or meditation then walking through the woods. But, going off what pedant said, all those feelings could have come about due to a chemical change in my body. I'm not 100 percent sure i know whether this is due to what pedant said or due to actual energy in living things. I know the best way I can describe what I felt during those walks in the woods after yoga or meditations was feeling vibrations all around me, seeming to be coming from the trees and environment around me. I felt something similar with a particular tea, that I made a post about on here. Instead the vibrations seemed to be undulating within me. That's been my experience with qi. Most "qi" is not like my experience with LT (Last Thoughts), most have been a slight calm, maybe mild sedation. I guess the way I like to think about it is perhaps the chemical reactions due to meditation exercises or focused yoga puts us in a state where were more perceptive to energies around us.

[Victoria]

I've never really put my thoughts together on this. I know I've experienced energy before in other living things, a particular yoga teacher of mine whose presence just made you feel at peace and comfortable, after yoga or meditation then walking through the woods. But, going off what pedant said, all those feelings could have come about due to a chemical change in my body. I'm not 100 percent sure i know whether this is due to what pedant said or due to actual energy in living things. I know the best way I can describe what I felt during those walks in the woods after yoga or meditations was feeling vibrations all around me, seeming to be coming from the trees and environment around me. I felt something similar with a particular tea, that I made a post about on here. Instead the vibrations seemed to be undulating within me. That's been my experience with qi. Most "qi" is not like my experience with LT (Last Thoughts), most have been a slight calm, maybe mild sedation. I guess the way I like to think about it is perhaps the chemical reactions due to meditation exercises or focused yoga puts us in a state where were more perceptive to energies around us.

Oh very nicely expressed. I have had these feelings as well; when sailing in the deep ocean, after meditation, and after a few of our extended Pu’er sessions at my house. With tea, I think Cha Qi feeling is mostly coming from aged Pu’er that is from very old growth trees. When we are trying different teas during our LA club tastings, inevitably one Pu’er will be felt traveling through certain parts of the body by several, if not all members. Another Pu’er might make us all a little high. Getting tea drunk or tea high, and feeling life force or Cha Qi I think might be different types of experiences.

[Bok]

Whatever we call the phenomenon, I mostly had it with high mountain tea, the most strong one with a Dong ding style processed High mountain. Contrary to Puerh, this kind of things seem to fade away with age in Taiwanese oolongs. They might into calming qualities but so far I have not experienced it in a strong enough way to say for sure it was the tea itself.

[Teachronicles]

I've never really put my thoughts together on this. I know I've experienced energy before in other living things, a particular yoga teacher of mine whose presence just made you feel at peace and comfortable, after yoga or meditation then walking through the woods. But, going off what pedant said, all those feelings could have come about due to a chemical change in my body. I'm not 100 percent sure i know whether this is due to what pedant said or due to actual energy in living things. I know the best way I can describe what I felt during those walks in the woods after yoga or meditations was feeling vibrations all around me, seeming to be coming from the trees and environment around me. I felt something similar with a particular tea, that I made a post about on here. Instead the vibrations seemed to be undulating within me. That's been my experience with qi. Most "qi" is not like my experience with LT (Last Thoughts), most have been a slight calm, maybe mild sedation. I guess the way I like to think about it is perhaps the chemical reactions due to meditation exercises or focused yoga puts us in a state where were more perceptive to energies around us.

Oh very nicely expressed. I have had these feelings as well; when sailing in the deep ocean, after meditation, and after a few of our extended Pu’er sessions at my house. With tea I think Cha Qi feeling is mostly coming from aged Pu’er that is from very old growth trees. When we are trying different teas during our LA club tastings, inevitably one Pu’er will be felt traveling through certain parts of the body by several, if not all members. Another Pu’er might make us all a little high. Getting tea drunk or tea high, and feeling life force or Cha Qi I think might be different types of experiences.

I definitely agree with that last sentence, it would be an interesting experiment to try to do some meditation or yoga and then drink a tea you know has atleast some sort of strong body effect, I know my current emotional and mental state can affect how I experience certain teas qi.

[Baisao]

It isn't mystical but most certainly is real. You can call it qi or pharmacology or burple or whatever.

I am surprised by the comments expressing that this feeling is rare or limited to a couple categories of tea. I experience changes in mood and body sensations, beyond what I would expect from caffeine, nearly everytime I drink teas from China, Japan, and Taiwan. However, I don't feel it from unaged shou or low to mid-tier teas.

Most of the time these sensations are clearly evident but sometimes these sensations are so mild that they might otherwise go unnoticed. Infrequently, a tea may be quite strong in that it may alter speech or vision. Thus far, the latter has been relegated to a particular wild grown tea and to very old sheng.

I think there are several things that can account for strong sensations I feel:

• Personal factors- I meditate frequently and haven't had intoxicants (e.g., alcohol, tobacco, etc.) for nearly two decades. I suspect I am both a "lightweight" and simply more aware of what is happening to my body & mind as I drink tea.

• Tea growing environments- this feeling is strongest is wild or organically grown teas. It is well documented that plants develop phytochemical defenses to protect themselves from pests and pathogens when living in a hostile environment. These phytochemicals may affect us as they go into solution as we make tea.
  • I have a hunch that many of these chemicals are gabanergic and/or work to block acetylcholine

• Compositional changes to tea as it is aged - My experiences with aged teas have led me to believe that there are at least two things occurring in these teas.
  • Aged sheng has additional chemicals present from biologics that are "composting" the tea, such as various fungi and bacteria. "Twenty-five toxic metabolites, mainly of fungal origin, were detected, with patulin and asperglaucide dominating..." were identified in aged sheng samples, as cited here. These mycotoxins may affect the mind.
  • Aged teas change in composition and increase in free radicals. If studies are done, I think it is important to consider the changes in composition that occur in aged teas. This speculation on my part, but the prevalence of chaqi in aged oolongs is conspicuous.

• Volume of tea - I think that water intoxication is involved in some marathon sessions where more fluid is consumed than the kidneys can process (1 liter per hour, on average). I no longer partake in these. An electrolyte imbalance is nothing to toy with.

• Breathing changes or aromatic compounds - I have noticed more chaqi when using aroma cups. This could be from changes in breathing, such as getting too little CO2 to Oxygen, or could be because of aromatic compounds in the tea making it immediately into the brain through the nasal mucosa.

I think that the notion that some chaqi is caused by pesticides is unlikely. I think pesticide consumption from tea is a huge concern that needs to be investigated, but I do not see pesticides as being a cause for chaqi. I had a pesticide applicator license, was trained in their usage and method of action, and have spent a lifetime around them. I see no other acute effects from responsible pesticide application other than an unpleasant feeling in the mouth or throat. Chronic effects are another thing entirely, but I do not want to digress from the topic.

[EarthMonkey]

The Chinese note that those who practice "arts" are more apt to observe the effects of tea. Whether one associates some of those effects as "mystical" will likely depend on the measure to which is married either to "woo-woo" or materialism. Some chemicals or minerals are associated with mysticism, such as copper or cinnabar. I remember once having a conversation with a mystic who was relating the experience of another who was keen on taking gold or silver, I don't recall completely. The guy said that this individual's "skills" on some level, which I don't altogether recall, were quite highly developed. What I do remember was that that person also "transitioned" at what many would consider a premature age. From such a perspective, why wouldn't more ethereal awareness lead to the etherealization of one's existence?

I don't practice arts as far as I'm willing to acknowledge, but my mother does and I grew up steeped in it. Every production has a personality and we could call that qi. I wouldn't associate that with anything mystical most of the time. You can get a good buzz from sichuan pepper dishes or a good wine or coffee. All these have qi. As has been noted, not all cheese are the same: ya got your raw and blue, hard and soft. It's no differente con te. Some people are very sensitive naturally. I've had patients who would describe the action of a needle at an instant, and could upon 1/2 oz of a production know everything about it.

[TeaZero]

It's pretty much an abstract thing, and everyone has a different interpretation.

For me, a tea has good 'qi' when:

• it brings me to a higher meditative state.

• I'm more focused, and I feel more aware of my body

• I also experience my body warming up, and I sweat a little.