Are we allowed to talk vendors?

Andrew S
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Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:28 pm

I generally agree. Negative comments are useful, if not taken to the extreme, but can be hard to write. Another issue with saying something negative about a particular tea from a vendor is that it can convey the wrong impression.

I had some bad things to say here about a particular 'infrared' tea from Stéphane at Tea Masters a little while ago. I remain of those views; however, I'm conscious that someone reading my negative comments might think that I dislike Tea Masters more generally, which is not correct. Sometimes I don't bother mentioning a tea which was okay but just a little disappointing, and sometimes I don't bother mentioning a tea which is perfectly fine but just not that amazing. There's a kind of selection bias involved.

More generally, I think that the internet is a place which encourages extreme views, since moderate views don't get much attention, and it is also a place where misunderstandings quickly get out of control, but those are separate (but additional) issues, which I think don't arise here very often.

YS purports to specialise in young puer, and seems to be a place where people like to get young puer in large quantities if they've tried a bit and found that they like it. It doesn't seem to be a place where someone can expect every single tea to meet some level of quality, especially not teas from different regions or in different styles. Perhaps the clue is in the title (or perhaps should be in the title more clearly).

Thankfully, I don't know anything about anyone's reddit antics...

Andrew
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Baisao
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Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:38 pm

Well said, @Andrew S. I’ve withheld mentioning the vendor of an especially noxious Dong Ding (though one clever person figured it out) because I believe most vendors are acting in earnest. I won’t try another tea from them because the experience was so bad, but I won’t burn the vendor publicly either. They deserve a chance to improve.

I’ve had some mediocre teas recently and haven’t thought to mention the vendor. Context matters because the farmers were experimenting with a style of tea that is exceedingly rare in their region. They deserve a chance to improve.

I hold firm that doping is more common than is being admitted. Yancha sprayed with saline, baozhong dusted with allspice, dançong with artificial scents, jin xuan dusted with non-dairy creamer, etc. I have observed that vendors believe in these “too good to be true” products because of the relationships they have with the farmers. They can’t imagine their friend (or some remote farmer) could possibly do these things. They ask, “If I’m not doing it and the farmer’s not doing it, then who is doing it?!” I have no answers other than people lie and the proof of deception is in the tea. So, I don’t call out vendors of doped teas. Everyone deserves a chance to improve.
Ethan Kurland
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Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:14 am

One of the most difficult situations in life is to be the victim of someone whom people do not perceive as a person who would do the wrong that was done.

I once bought 8.6 kilograms of a tea that was packed for me in vacuum packs of a few sizes. 2 of the 40 packs of 100 grams had a different tea in them, much inferior to what was ordered, in fact awful tea. If a lot more of the packs had contained junk, I'd suspect it was intentional; however, a mistake had been made obviously. Fortunately, those 2 packs were used by me, & customers only got good tea.

Years later as a retail customer, one of the teas that I purchased from a vendor (whom I & many others liked & respected) was so awful that I thought something similar to what had happened to me buying wholesale, had happened to the vendor when her tea was packed. Unfortunately, I never got close to learning how I had been sent a packet of disgusting leaves because as soon as I started to tell the vendor what I had received, I was told that it did not happen. I sent the tea back to the vendor & was ignored. No replies to email; no time spent w/ me on the phone; no refund. I wrote about this on teachat at least a few times (instead of just once) which made people angry. However, the vendor years later is not as popular as previously; so, maybe some other members have received some nasty surprises.

It is good to read that some members are willing to write about the good & the bad experiences of teas purchased etc. I am most grateful when opinions are given w/ context.

For example, someone who praises a tea that he only gets as a sample will not be taken very seriously by me. How much is a tea liked if it cannot inspire a purchase of a modest amount, such as 50 grams? What should we think of the opinion of someone buying dozens of puerh cakes regulary (& already owning many more) who only drinks pu a few times a year....?

Nonetheless, lots of words from members who stay members & write often help us.
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Baisao
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Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:47 am

Ethan Kurland wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:14 am
Years later as a retail customer, one of the teas that I purchased from a vendor (whom I & many others liked & respected) was so awful that I thought something similar to what had happened to me buying wholesale, had happened to the vendor when her tea was packed. Unfortunately, I never got close to learning how I had been sent a packet of disgusting leaves because as soon as I started to tell the vendor what I had received, I was told that it did not happen. I sent the tea back to the vendor & was ignored. No replies to email; no time spent w/ me on the phone; no refund. I wrote about this on teachat at least a few times (instead of just once) which made people angry. However, the vendor years later is not as popular as previously; so, maybe some other members have received some nasty surprises.
I think that’s perfect example of what I’m talking about. The vendor had a chance to improve, didn’t, and now has fallen out of favor as more people caught on.
Ethan Kurland
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Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:33 am

Baisao wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:47 am
Ethan Kurland wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:14 am
.... I wrote about this on teachat at least a few times (instead of just once) which made people angry. ..."at me" I should have included.
I think that’s perfect example of what I’m talking about. The vendor had a chance to improve, didn’t, and now has fallen out of favor as more people caught on.
I never read that what happened to me, happened to others. I could be the only unlucky customer, so unlucky to be mistreated, & then disliked on teachat :oops: though more likely a few more customers received something awful because my being ignored leads me to believe the problem was not investigated.

Your words, Baiso, may be more of an explanation, "the vendor had a chance to improve, didn't". Lots of vendors that got lots of attention now don't garner much praise etc.. They probably offer what they always offered; but now many of us now drink better tea. What once pleased some of us as great improvement over ordinary supermarket tea is no longer tea that we want to buy. Not all of us. Personally, I may have been confused for years or forever. Websites of vendors & bloggers did not help me much. Also, even if through them I found my way to enjoying better tea would I get clear in my head about such tea. For tea as it had been for me for cigars, I needed to be w/ experienced, sophisticated consumers & to meet producers.

I don't know as much about tea drinkers as I do about cigar smokers.

Some of the very limited number of smokers who consume many cigars, will spend $ on cigars that they should not buy. $ is spent on new brands which are re-issues of blends of tobacco that were disliked in previous years. There are new stories, new names, etc. for cigars much inferior to great cigars produced by generations of serious people that have been producing w/ optimum farming, curing, aging, etc. & selling to satisfied customers. (Some cigar smokers will waste $1000 yearly on cigars above what they spend on cigars that they love. These extra purchases often lead to one cigar being tossed away after a few puffs & four cigars given away or buried on the bottom of a humidor because introductory five-packs of cigars are usually offered for about 2.5 x the price of a single cigar. Sometimes a free humidor is given w/ 20 or 25 cigars, samples of all of a new brand's lines. A drug rehabilitation center in Pennsylvania is given many of these humidors w/ 15 or so cigars in them because that center tries to teach its clients there are other things to enjoy in life besides hard drugs.) Most of the cigar smokers who fall for hyperbolic advertising will spend just as much on their tried & true favorites though they bought other cigars. These smokers don't get confused about quality; they remember what they like.

I don't know how many tea drinkers remain clear about what they like & are comfortable drinking favorite teas almost all of the time. I don't know how many ever find their way to some of the best tea.
Last edited by Ethan Kurland on Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
Toha0652
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Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:33 am

@Teafortea
The ones I order from his Taiwan sister house I gave away after trying two. Not worth my time. I’m bitter of having spent so much so I guess I thought asking here would help me.
TWS on the other hand produces quite high quality oolong (if its not their certified organic series). so you might also need to do a bit more research into what makes a tea good and worthwhile. whomever you gave them to is lucky i guess

but yeah other than the dian hongs (black teas) and some shous i don't think you gonna get very good tea from YS
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Teafortea
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Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:24 am

The person that I gave them to is an owner of a little tea store near by and a good friend. I can post a screen of her email with her notes but it’s in French. Her review was even more negative than mine after she tried the TS Tea’s. I gave her a bunch of bags and two bags of à vendor from USA I usually order from when I go home. She noticed immediately the good tea…

But anyway, I’m not scared of bad tea that does not taste good, I think that’s all part of the fun of the tea world, trying new Tea’s and appreciating new flavors. What’s scares me is pesticide and migraine that make me curl up and miss my day of work. Then I wonder what toxic load did I just give my body.
I’ve been kind of lucky these past years as I’ve always stayed with local sellers. I’ve lived abroad in multiple countries and the little tea shop owners end up always being my friends… but ordering online is what you get sometimes, and lesson learned. What Leofox said, I should stick with vendors described in 1 and 2 and keep calm and drink tea 🍵
Toha0652
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Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:33 am

@Teafortea

now i am curious what teas have you tried from them?
i want names :D


and.... it's not all about taste only yaknow. Teas from TWS are probably the most organic well processed teas available to the west. Simon takes extra care to not have pesticide in tea and processes all his teas very very carefully.
the non jade ones take a while to open up though. they are not meant to be drank fresh right after opening the bag. they are so great after a year with some air in the bag. very good and (some) also quite high end and special teas both culturally and how they express themselves and their cultivar - of course only when allowed to open up and brewed properly (although they are quite hard to fuck up).
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Teafortea
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Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:51 am

Ethan Kurland wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:33 am
Baisao wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:47 am
Ethan Kurland wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:14 am
.... I wrote about this on teachat at least a few times (instead of just once) which made people angry. ..."at me" I should have included.
I think that’s perfect example of what I’m talking about. The vendor had a chance to improve, didn’t, and now has fallen out of favor as more people caught on.
Yes, Baiso, the vendor over time displeased enough people to be noticeably less in favor but not totally out of favor. Of course, much worse situations exist w/ mainstream businesses that prefer to spend fortunes on advertising to get new customers & very little $ to handle the problems of existing customers.
Is this vendor a Taiwanese tea vendor?
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LeoFox
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Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:36 am

Teafortea wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:51 am
Ethan Kurland wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:33 am
Baisao wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:47 am


I think that’s perfect example of what I’m talking about. The vendor had a chance to improve, didn’t, and now has fallen out of favor as more people caught on.
Yes, Baiso, the vendor over time displeased enough people to be noticeably less in favor but not totally out of favor. Of course, much worse situations exist w/ mainstream businesses that prefer to spend fortunes on advertising to get new customers & very little $ to handle the problems of existing customers.
Is this vendor a Taiwanese tea vendor?
Could be floating leaves- people seem to love them or hate them.

Some other vendors that have tainted reputations online include verdant leaf

http://www.marshaln.com/2015/12/verdant ... kes-again/

And mei leaf
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Teafortea
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Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:54 am

👍🏻 I still have some verdant tea samples a friend shared with me😅, never got to open them. I think they date 2014.
Ethan Kurland
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Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:18 am

Teafortea wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:51 am

Is this vendor a Taiwanese tea vendor?
I won't say who it is, but will say located in USA. I am a vendor now & writing in hopes we get wise together & not to compete.

I apologize. Computer glitches today. Only part of reply to Baiso post seems to have been submitted. I edited elongated reply above.
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LeoFox
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Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:44 am

Toha0652 wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:33 am
Teafortea

now i am curious what teas have you tried from them?
i want names :D


and.... it's not all about taste only yaknow. Teas from TWS are probably the most organic well processed teas available to the west.
100% disagree with that
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mbanu
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Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:47 am

Ethan Kurland wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:14 am
For example, someone who praises a tea that he only gets as a sample will not be taken very seriously by me. How much is a tea liked if it cannot inspire a purchase of a modest amount, such as 50 grams? What should we think of the opinion of someone buying dozens of puerh cakes regulary (& already owning many more) who only drinks pu a few times a year....?

Nonetheless, lots of words from members who stay members & write often help us.
I think there is a little internet peer-pressure going on here -- when people ask "What tea are you drinking?" they generally don't want to hear, "The same tea as last time, only maybe in a different teacup today." :lol: I think this is a split between offline and online tea-drinking.
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debunix
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Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:08 am

Ethan Kurland wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:14 am
For example, someone who praises a tea that he only gets as a sample will not be taken very seriously by me. How much is a tea liked if it cannot inspire a purchase of a modest amount, such as 50 grams?
I often write about samples that I do not go on to purchase, for reasons I consider absolutely legitimate, and I would not dismiss sample reviews. For example, I do try to limit the number of certain types of teas open at once, and by the time I get to the sample, the tea may be sold out. Or the sample of a yancha is lovely, but I have more yancha than I can use up for several years already.
I do need to be more systematic about tracking teas from different vendors especially samples, to better inform future purchases.
mbanu wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:47 am
when people ask "What tea are you drinking?" they generally don't want to hear, "The same tea as last time, only maybe in a different teacup today."
This is exactly why I created the 'your day in tea' topic, for those moments when I do not want to review a particular tea, but to mention a particularly fine session, or to give credit to a longstanding favorite that continues to be wonderful. I like it when people bring up a favorite tea repeatedly because sometimes that's what it takes to get me to try it myself one day. It shouldn't have to be always a rigorously detailed review of a new-to-you tea. It's useful to know that when a tea does not depend on one magical combination of clay brewing vessel and cup to be delightful, or that another tea retains it's best quality for a long time, or even that a particular tea should be drunk up quickly on arrival because that delightful quality is fleeting.
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