Tasting for Agrochemicals

[aet]

I was just wondering if anybody here tried this test?
http://archive.globalteahut.org/docs/issues/2020-11.pdf
What is your experience , impression?
Please share.

I had a chance to compare organic green tea with non organic , but they were from different producers so it wasn't really precise A/B comparing. In fact , the non organic was better in taste and richness , and other 2 friends ( clients ) independently reported the same.
But as I wrote , not same producer , and I think that organic TF had bit issue with processing rather than having not good tea leaf it self.

[Baisao]

I haven’t been able to performance an A/B test yet but have recently received an order of various Taiwanese teas from multiple locations, of multiple types, all of them wild or grown without agrochemicals. They are wild or feral or organic.

They are very different from their agrochemical kin! They are modest, less showy. For example, a baozhong will be less floral than an agrochemical baozhong, but have more depth and a more pleasant feeling.

Some things that I found odd is that the wild/feral/organic teas induce more salivation and most have a mint-like sensation in the throat, something I rarely found in agrochem teas.

[Bok]

@Baisao mint like! You’ve found one of the keys ; )

[Andrew S]

My experience is similar - I have not done a comparison, but teas which were sold to me as being wild or natural teas (for want of better descriptions) often taste and feel different to other teas.

As Baisao says, they are less about strong, obvious, upfront aromas or flavours, and more about purity or depth of flavour, elegant mouthfeel, strong but pleasant feelings.

Of course, this assumes that they were what they purported to be. It also assumes that everything else is equal, which it is not likely to be. Teas without agrochemicals may be from older bushes, may not be harvested as frequently, may receive more attention in their processing...

That's probably not a very useful description (and I haven't taken the time to distill what GTH says in their writings).

I find that similar notions apply to teas from old trees - they're not exuberant, but rather more subtle, with pure flavours and feelings to them. But that's subject to the same provisos.

Incidentally (and hopefully not off-topic), a move away from agrochemicals has been a part of certain aspects of the wine world for a little while (and probably elsewhere as well), but the proof is usually in the proverbial pudding. I think that it would be wrong to ask whether someone can detect the use of chemicals in a wine - rather, it is more about whether the grower and winemaker can make a better product when they're incentivised to use fewer chemical additives (often by being able to command a higher price), and if so, then that is a good thing (again, subject to a higher price and perhaps limited availability). I will not touch upon 'biodynamic' wine, since that involves phases of the moon and other things of the kind that I asusme you'll find in GTH articles.

Andrew

[Baisao]

It also assumes that everything else is equal, which it is not likely to be. Teas without agrochemicals may be from older bushes, may not be harvested as frequently, may receive more attention in their processing...

This is a perceptive comment. As an example, feral TGY will lack the flavor we normally associate with TGY as this is produced by young, induced growth from regular pruning.

However, there are going to be other aspects of a well made feral TGY that make it worthwhile even if it lacks the swirling candy-like aroma of conventionally made TGY.

[TeaGrove]

Off topic: I'm going to guess this has more to do with plant over pesticide but as I'm not knowledgeable on the agrochemicals used could someone who is share that information?

I'm assuming there's plenty of agrochemical free tea being sold which doesn't qualify as organic. But what does qualify as organic?

I've no experience with tea but when growing organic it's best to grow heirloom, rare, or wild varieties. The novelty often surpasses the flavour but at least you can justify the effort and the price tag.

[Baisao]

Off topic: I'm going to guess this has more to do with plant over pesticide but as I'm not knowledgeable on the agrochemicals used could someone who is share that information?

I'm assuming there's plenty of agrochemical free tea being sold which doesn't qualify as organic. But what does qualify as organic?

I've no experience with tea but when growing organic it's best to grow heirloom, rare, or wild varieties. The novelty often surpasses the flavour but at least you can justify the effort and the price tag.

It’s not just pesticides but also fertilizer.

Urea fertilized tea plants will have a different profile than unfertilized or naturally fertilized. I’ve seen in my own gardening how the growth is different between urea-based fertilizers and organic fertilizers (usually some fermented product like rapeseed cakes). The growth from urea-based ferts is vigorous, which seems good at first, but it is too fast, plays out quickly, often doesn’t develop mycelium, and invites pests like aphids and fungi. Of course that leads to more applications of urea fertilizer and pesticides.

Plants that I fertilized organically had slow but steady growth through the season, developed a lot of mycelium in the root zone, and had fewer pest problems.

[Ethan Kurland]

Urea .....

About 20 years ago the EU banned fertilizers made by a big corporation Bayer_____...can't think of the name. Anyway, the corporation through the long process of hearings & appeals had thought it would prevail; so it kept up production of its urea-based fertilizers which contained harmful chemicals. Once the decision was beyond challenges, the banned fertilizers were sold outside of Europe. I saw huge bags of it at the small pineapple farm of my girlfriend's family. I was surprised to see so much of it was carelessly piled on the ground. I tried to tell them that they needed to be careful about the bags getting wet & leaching too many chemicals etc. but got nowhere.

On my second & last visit there I came w/ an explanation written in Thai & w/ a Thai friend to read it to the illiterate family. I cannot remember which was stronger, the lack of comprehension or the lack of concern. Frustrated & impatient, her husband from Scotland, surprised us by going over to the fertilizer & reading the ingredients (we did not know that he was fluent in German).

When he said "urea", the family said, "yes, yes, "ultra", number one for strong, very, very good."
("Urea" had become "ultra" & ultra is the best for sure.)

The pineapples were bigger, extremely juicy, & less flavorful. That did not matter to the Polish canning company that buys almost all of the pineapple from that part of Thailand. The greater weight of the crop did not yield the farmers in the area (all of them using the EU-banned fertilizer) more $. W/ such a high yield the price per kilogram went down.

The pineapples that don't have a watered-down taste are those not grown for the 2 harvests produced for the canning company. If the weather is not too hard on them, these odd ones grew out of season & were not watered nor given fertilizer, are tastier than the pineapples regularly doused w/ water & chemicals (given what is called the "ultra" treatment).

[Baisao]

@Ethan Kurland, that’s a great example! It’s an ironic truth: more becomes less.

[Baisao]

I was just wondering if anybody here tried this test?
http://archive.globalteahut.org/docs/issues/2020-11.pdf
What is your experience , impression?
Please share.

I had a chance to compare organic green tea with non organic , but they were from different producers so it wasn't really precise A/B comparing. In fact , the non organic was better in taste and richness , and other 2 friends ( clients ) independently reported the same.
But as I wrote , not same producer , and I think that organic TF had bit issue with processing rather than having not good tea leaf it self.

I also wonder about the usefulness of using taste to detect agrochemicals.

We can detect fertilizer differences at extremes, but what differences and at what scale? A little urea might go unnoticed in the final product. Or overdoing it with organic fertilizer might cause a tea to taste like a urea fertilized one. I wonder.

We could also (maybe) taste pesticides at extremes. But I’d rather put my trust in a proper lab analysis than taste tea for pesticides. I was taught that the tastes and smells we associate with pesticides are often the carrier agent or emulsifier rather than the pesticide itself. Maybe some farmer is mixing a wettable powder with diatomaceous earth and applying it to his tea bushes. We might never taste that and it could be more toxic than had he followed the instructions and diluted it with water.

But having said all this, most of the teas I’ve tried that are supposed to be free of agrochemicals do feel and taste differently. They weren’t tested in a lab so who knows if they really are chem free, but the phenomenon of “clean” tea does appear to be real.

[LeoFox]

Maybe it's not tasting agrochemicals but tasting the lack of agrochemicals - e.g. bug bitten notes.

[aet]

I also wonder about the usefulness of using taste to detect agrochemicals.

Well , to me ? It would be an extreme advantage. I'd feel like superhuman If I could do that!

Going to any tea farm, supplier, shop and only by tasting, spot if organic or not. Without caring some test lab or sending samples somewhere , paying like 1000$ and waiting a week for results which might come up in red ( so u wasted your money for testing )
How cool that be!

Of course I'm not optimistic about having an ability to spot any chem. by taste. I also can imagine , that the amount of chem. applied , the way of brewing also play the role in ability to spot anything ( if it is possible to taste it actually )

Apart of that , I believe , one has to have a good knowledge of the particular tea and knowing ( remember ) the organic taste of it and preferable from different producers , areas .etc. , to be ready for variables which might come in taste.
Like with puerh being able to determine years of storage by taste , which is more complex ,as the existing variables ( trees , area, processing ) are multiplied by type of storage - dry / wet .

Like my kinda first solid introduction to tea ( and following learning curve start ) was sheng puer. When I started trying oolongs ( something like year later ) , all of them tasted to me un-natural. Just too sweet, too flowery , perfumery , too chemical ...etc. Like water with something added into it.
Of course I didn't blame chemicals ( in fact some of them were from certified EU organic producer ) , but I just had no knowledge of the taste and "more sweet, less sweet / aromatic" is not the key element how to distinguish which is organic and which not.

So if someone says : " too aromatic..so it's doped " ...yeah , but what means "too" ?
If there is more depth in taste . Again , how do you define if it's "deep" enough or not?

I believe A/B masterclass is a good way / start on some learning curve . It might not give you "superhuman" power ability , but it might shift you somewhere in ladder of knowledge which might help you to determine / select out at least the ones which are "too" ( obviously ) doped.

I wasn't lucky enough to encounter possibility to compare identical tea in organic and non organic form. They offered in masterclass here in Kunming on Jinshi tea market, but that was part of some other BS tea ceremony package class for quite a $$$ , so I passed In fact, I don't think they even had the identical A/B tea set ready for that, but just some cheap bush versus their organic small arbors ( which they try to sell ) .

I do not posses super-ability to taste organic tea, neither feel like to pay 5000 CNY for test of 20 - 50kg batch with risk not passing it , so had to develop different "senses" how to source clean stuff. It might not be 100% reliable , but at least I know how to avoid the obvious stuff.

[Ethan Kurland]

....I had to develop different "senses" how to source clean stuff. It might not be 100% reliable , but at least I know how to avoid the obvious stuff.

+1 No one can be sure that there is not some trace of some toxin somewhere in one of his teas, but
toxic teas are avoidable.

[aet]

just thought can add some pictures to this thread to make it more colorful
in one tea town.
Can't confirm all goes to plantations or vegetables, neither can say if it's possible to taste it in tea it self after.

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[Baisao]

just thought can add some pictures to this thread to make it more colorful
in one tea town.
Can't confirm all goes to plantations or vegetables, neither can say if it's possible to taste it in tea it self after.

Thank you for the photos. Those nitrogen values are on the high end. I’m not fanatical about organics but I don’t use fertilizers with NPK values that high unless I am trying to rescue a nitrogen deficient plant, which isn’t very often, and still diluted by half. In other words, I see more problems than solutions with fertilizers like that.