Value of tea recommendations

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LeoFox
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Sun Feb 13, 2022 6:58 am

People often request or seek out tea recommendations. I feel there are several risks:
  • The recommendation can come from people with limited experience with this kind of tea. What's the value of a recommendation from a person who tried this kind of tea once or twice from one vendor and probably brewed it wrong?
  • The recommendation can come from people with vastly different tastes than the person requesting the recommendation. If you don't like shou, is there any value from taking the advice from someone who mostly drinks shou? Is there any value of taking the advice of someone who has given rave reviews of some tea that you have tasted and found abysmal?
  • The "good" recommendations of people who are aligned in taste with the person asking for recommendations and who have good experience in that tea may be diluted / drowned out by the recommendations of other people.
  • There may be ulterior motives for some recommendations. For example, some might be supporting a specific vendor or tea trend/cult. Some might be friends with a vendor. Some might actually be vendors. Some might be trying to get more free tea from vendors!
Therefore perhaps some good advice to people asking for recommendations might be just for them to try some of these teas themselves. And if they do want to rely on reviews, to look deeply into the different recommenders / reviewers online- to see if their tastes align and if that reviewer has adequate experience.

Any thoughts?
Attachments
Look also at people's pics. The fact that I am pouring kind of high may out me as inexperienced to some. Therefore my recommendations may be of minimal value to them. I would pay attention to the kinds of teawares and tea brewing practices they employ.  Are they using a shou pot to also brew green tea? Are they mostly drinking while working or playing video games? Do they feel no qualms about drinking high quality tea with a greasy meal?
Look also at people's pics. The fact that I am pouring kind of high may out me as inexperienced to some. Therefore my recommendations may be of minimal value to them. I would pay attention to the kinds of teawares and tea brewing practices they employ. Are they using a shou pot to also brew green tea? Are they mostly drinking while working or playing video games? Do they feel no qualms about drinking high quality tea with a greasy meal?
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Last edited by LeoFox on Sun Feb 13, 2022 2:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Andrew S
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Sun Feb 13, 2022 7:52 am

I tend to agree, except that I tend to think that recommendations are useful, provided that matters such as the ones that you've listed are kept in mind.

Trying teas yourself is always useful, of course, but everyone has limited time and limited budgets. On top of that, it can be useful to learn things from others, even if it is just from a comment on the internet.

Perhaps recommendations should be seen as 'opinions' rather than 'recommendations' That may sound like a trivial distinction, but I think that the former tends to suggest nothing more than an honestly-held or reasonably-held opinion, whereas the latter tends to suggest something rather more than that, which can lead to disappointment, or to a sense that the opinion is authoritative in some way.

Opinions may indeed be 'authoritative' in the sense that they come from someone with knowledge and experience, but it's for the person receiving the opinion to ascertain what weight, or respect, they afford it. I don't believe that everyone's opinions should be given the same weight, but it takes some experience (and trust) to ascertain the weight to give to what different people say (whether because of their knowledge or experience, or because of their tastes, or the other matters you've mentioned).

I do think that a place like this is a more useful place to hear about people's opinions on a tea than a more generic internet forum, or a vendor's website reviews. If people read posts here, they learn what someone's tastes and experience are like, which is harder elsewhere I think.

Any 'medium' roast yancha that I talk about might be a 'high' roast for most others, for example, and someone's 'old' puer may well be too youthful to me to bear...

Additionally, I find two types of opinion to be fairly useful: one where someone says that X tea has a particular style (or is a good example of a particular style), and another is where someone says that X tea is extremely good.

Those are both useful for me to calibrate my own opinions, or to learn things from, even if I end up disagreeing.

Andrew
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Balthazar
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Sun Feb 13, 2022 9:14 am

Interesting topic!

I agree with the above.

Recommendations can be useful when they come from someone whose tastes you know are at least somewhat aligned with your own. Which of course you cannot know until you have tried a good number of teas that they have shared their opinion of. ("Tastes" here referring not only to flavors, but rather to what they are looking for in a tea, their priority order of aromas/body/qi/huigan etc, etc.) They can also be useful when you're exploring a family of teas that is new to you, if you know that the person in question is well versed in that area (although certain caveats obviously apply).

There's a few people whose recommendations I've blind bought cakes and bricks on account of. And a huge ocean of people whose recommendation of a tea would at best influence me to pick up a specific sample.

I think it's much easier to discern a member's "understanding"/experience level from what they write (over time) than the images they post (and teaware they use).
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mbanu
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Sun Feb 13, 2022 9:37 am

I wonder, where did the idea of tea recommendations come from? Because people usually make tea with the local water, there's no real way to get the same taste out of the same tea outside of a local area without using bottled water. Also local tastes tend to differ, like how different regions prefer different levels of spiciness in their food. So instead of recommendations, the usual way tea spread was through a neighbor's teapot or a sample cup from a local vendor who brewed with the local water and knew local tastes, or through things which had nothing to do with the taste of the tea at all, like having a really influential ad campaign that made people want to drink the tea for non-taste reasons.

Maybe they are a product of tea-books? James Norwood Pratt did tea recommendations in A Tea-Lover's Treasury back in 1982, but that is because he came from the world of wine, where recommendations make sense.

I suppose the closest a person can get is to ask detailed questions about the requestor's local cuisine and water, and then to think of another place they've visited that was similar. So if the water is hard and everyone eats spicy food, then maybe recommendations for teas from another place where the water is hard and the food is spicy would go over well.
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Balthazar
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Sun Feb 13, 2022 9:59 am

mbanu wrote:
Sun Feb 13, 2022 9:37 am
I wonder, where did the idea of tea recommendations come from? Because people usually make tea with the local water, there's no real way to get the same taste out of the same tea outside of a local area without using bottled water. Also local tastes tend to differ, like how different regions prefer different levels of spiciness in their food.
mbanu wrote:
Sun Feb 13, 2022 9:37 am
Maybe they are a product of tea-books? James Norwood Pratt did tea recommendations in A Tea-Lover's Treasury back in 1982, but that is because he came from the world of wine, where recommendations make sense.
I think you're over-complicating things here. Water is one of several parameters (an important one, but still). Yes, there's no way to get the exactly the same taste out of the "same tea" (heck, it's not even the same tea!) but it's not like it's going to be a night-and-day difference most of the time.

Tea recommendations are no more an exotic or strange phenomenon than recommendations in general. And where did recommendations come from? Man's hubris!
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wave_code
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Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:51 am

I'm grateful for the people and recommendations/discussions I've had here because I find they have been super useful. Even when the board seems less active there are private messages bouncing around or conversations on other platforms with people I've come in to contact with here first. Getting recommendations after more extensive conversations so you know you are on a similar page or taste as someone else, or at the very least that they actually know their stuff if you are asking for tips on something you know nothing about, goes a lot further. I've learned so much and the best 'recommendations' or advice I've gotten have come out of conversations or lots of back and forth exchange- it is a world away from a direct endorsement or mini-review from a basically unknown source.

A lot of platforms like instagram or other social media where the most 'recommending' seems to happen seem the worst possible place to me. Many people seem very quick to volunteer overly enthusiastic uncritical tasting notes with links to vendors, or want to explain a style of tea which as it just so turns out they have tried a grand total of one time 10 minutes ago and copy-pasted what a vendor said about its production. I know some people just want to share their enthusiasm, and I suppose thats all well and fine, though its hard to say distinctly where it crosses a line to vendor pandering or sharing and re-sharing of incorrect or misleading information. I can think of a few more public western tea 'personalities' who praise or push particular vendors- one of them I tried a large variety of samples from just by coincidence and I didn't wind up finishing even a single sample pack with a lot of them just winding up in the trash. On one hand people can excitedly recommend overpriced teas back and forth forever hoping to get handed some crappy free promo tea here and there and leave the good stuff for the rest of us, on the other hand things like this still drive up the market and its a shame to see people who might really appreciate something more get misled and spend years overpaying on crappy tea. Over time this can also lead to an overall lower standard of what is accessible to the western market I think too if vendors can pop up left and right and manage to sell junk bings in fancy wrappers with funny names.
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Bok
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Sun Feb 13, 2022 7:04 pm

Due diligence is always in order, no matter the kind of recommendation one gets.

Having tea together with someone, or exchanging teas will make the picture of who to trust on what a lot quicker. I only put faith in the opinions of people I had tea with or shared common tea sources. In the past I fell a few times in the trap to try teas of vendors who were hyped at one point or another, quickly taught me not to do that... money lost but FOMO cured for good.

If someone says amazing be cautious, very little actually is.
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Baisao
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Mon Feb 14, 2022 1:01 am

I’m aligned with @Bok on this. There’s precious little amazing tea to be acquired. It’s frequently not for sale for any amount of money. Very good tea is easier to acquire but it is rare that I find it being sold in a shop. It often involves relationships and trust to acquire.

I have also observed that the more academic knowledge a person has about tea the less capable they are at making & assessing tea. This is a generalization, of course, but I have learned to be wary of recommendations / advice coming from people with this kind of knowledge. They are collecting data points rather than experiences.
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Quentin
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Mon Feb 14, 2022 5:00 pm

Your point on academic vs practical knowledge put into words my feelings on who I generally trust when looking for recommendations @Baisao

To make a comparison, it reminds me a lot of the electric guitar community. Sometimes you’ll come across “gear heads”, people who seem more interested in all the ways different pedals, strings or amps can change a sound than they are actually playing. More often than not, when I find myself looking for advice, I listen more closely to the words from the people who just play a bunch, or in this case, drink a lot of tea.
GaoShan
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Wed Feb 16, 2022 3:48 pm

Most consumers have limited budgets and don't have networks of trusted people to buy or exchange "amazing" or even "very good" tea with. I think recommendations are useful, provided you do your research and understand the person's experience level and taste. I've gotten a few solid recommendations on this forum and have discovered some vendors selling teas I like through swaps via Steepster. I particularly appreciate recommendations that have tasting notes and describe the steeping parameters so I can try to replicate what the drinker is getting.

Tea buying is always a gamble, especially for inexperienced or "sort-of-experienced" drinkers like me, and hearing good things about a vendor from a likeminded person can help justify risking large amounts of money on a purchase, often including high shipping costs. One of the major reasons I'm considering buying from places like Hojo and Tea Habitat one day is the good press they've received on this forum. I don't expect to like every tea that's given a good recommendation, even by someone whose tastes align with mine, but getting four out of five teas right based on recommendations is better than randomly picking five teas based on the vendor's description and possibly liking two of them.

Basically, good recommendations reduce risk, even if they're not perfect.
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belewfripp
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Sat Mar 12, 2022 1:44 pm

I think this is an interesting subject, and I agree with different aspects of what everyone else has said. As someone who comes from a sort of joint arts-and-science background, I try to apply both a scientific understanding of the limits of, and biases inherent in, human conclusion formation, on one hand, together with an appreciation for the subjective nature of any kind of creative/artistic/culinary experience. And what I mean by that, is that I'm very epistemological in my approach to decision-making, in general - what constitutes actual knowledge, and by what means would we acquire it, and how would we know if we did? There are ways to do so, but nothing is perfect - we try to go with what has the highest probability of being true (or of being a tea we would enjoy) but at the end of the day, we can't ever be sure until we try it.

As a result, I tend to do a lot of research and look at lots of different perspectives and try to weight those perspectives as best as I can. One thing I think is important is that I don't necessarily need to believe someone's experience or tastes will be or are the same as mine, so much as I need to see that that person's perspective is based on real experience and is a "truly-held thing". In other words, that the person's perspective is genuine and that they are presenting a considered opinion of their experience with the tea. I don't know about anywhere else in the world, but in the U.S. superlatives have become almost devoid of all meaning. I blame an economy organized around maximizing consistency over diversity of experience or a true reflection of the highs and lows that actually exist, and it is true for all of us that the parameters by which we form judgements are defined by the information and experience we have. People with little experience are more likely to be missing overall context in judging something's quality and when the range of possibilities is limited, call things "Amazing!" that may or may not present themselves as such to others. And someone who is not approaching the tea in a truly appreciative way will usually show in how they talk about it.

One of the difficulties is that while, on the one hand, we all (I think) acknowledge "good tea" as an objective reality exists in some sense, it's also true that the borders of these definitions are fuzzy and open to subjective interpretation. But if I can see that someone is engaging with the tea in an honest way and has experience then I will at the very least add that perspective to my "pile" of things to consider. And if, as is the case with several folks on this board, many people who fit that description all seem to have a positive view of either a vendor or a seller or another user's opinions, I will usually give that additional weight. I rarely ask directly for recommendations from anyone and tend to be a self-searcher, but will try to find many perspectives to build a more holistic "model". People who are clearly knowledgeable but who do not push or throw that knowledge around also get extra credence from me. People who think they know everything are often the least knowledgeable but the most insecure about needing to seem to be expert. The most knowledgeable have nothing to prove and know any knowledge they have comes from having at some time in the past admitting that they didn't know.

In the end, though, all I can do is gather information, ask questions (or research the answers myself in forum archives, other websites, sites purporting to provide information, etc.), review a vendor's sales pitch and sales model, consider my own tendencies, and make a reasonable choice about what is likely to be a good pick. I consider the third item very important - different vendors are very obviously taking different approaches with different marketing (from a ton to almost none) and, in some cases, a different picture of what they want us to believe we're saying about ourselves when we buy tea from them. And I also try to take reviews on vendor websites with a grain of salt - a good example is Yunnan Sourcing. I like YS, I've bought from them in the past and they fulfill a very useful role in being sort of the "superstore" of the online Chinese tea world. But any website I visit where almost every review is a rave review essentially makes me doubt not the vendor but the reliability of those leaving the reviews, kind of going back to the concept of overuse of superlatives.

I feel like I've said a ton and yet am sort of all over the place - basically, recommendations are a useful piece of building that model where the output is hopefully tea we will enjoy, but it's just a piece and we have to consider human limitations and psychology when using them. And I rarely solicit direct recommendations, instead preferring to do a lot of reading and a lot of digging. And sometimes I will follow what others seem to say is a good tea and other times I will buy something others say is not good because I want to see for myself and also have that learning experience. No one can build up our experience for us. And then sometimes I buy things that are completely outside my comfort zone and about which I know little just to force myself to stay diverse and keep chipping away at that block of "tea ignorance". And also sometimes i just randomly buy something on impulse because what the hell, why not? :D
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Baisao
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Sat Mar 12, 2022 2:08 pm

belewfripp wrote:
Sat Mar 12, 2022 1:44 pm
I think this is an interesting subject, and I agree with different aspects of what everyone else has said. As someone who comes from a sort of joint arts-and-science background, I try to apply both a scientific understanding of the limits of, and biases inherent in, human conclusion formation, on one hand, together with an appreciation for the subjective nature of any kind of creative/artistic/culinary experience. And what I mean by that, is that I'm very epistemological in my approach to decision-making, in general - what constitutes actual knowledge, and by what means would we acquire it, and how would we know if we did? There are ways to do so, but nothing is perfect - we try to go with what has the highest probability of being true (or of being a tea we would enjoy) but at the end of the day, we can't ever be sure until we try it.

As a result, I tend to do a lot of research and look at lots of different perspectives and try to weight those perspectives as best as I can. One thing I think is important is that I don't necessarily need to believe someone's experience or tastes will be or are the same as mine, so much as I need to see that that person's perspective is based on real experience and is a "truly-held thing". In other words, that the person's perspective is genuine and that they are presenting a considered opinion of their experience with the tea. I don't know about anywhere else in the world, but in the U.S. superlatives have become almost devoid of all meaning. I blame an economy organized around maximizing consistency over diversity of experience or a true reflection of the highs and lows that actually exist, and it is true for all of us that the parameters by which we form judgements are defined by the information and experience we have. People with little experience are more likely to be missing overall context in judging something's quality and when the range of possibilities is limited, call things "Amazing!" that may or may not present themselves as such to others. And someone who is not approaching the tea in a truly appreciative way will usually show in how they talk about it.

One of the difficulties is that while, on the one hand, we all (I think) acknowledge "good tea" as an objective reality exists in some sense, it's also true that the borders of these definitions are fuzzy and open to subjective interpretation. But if I can see that someone is engaging with the tea in an honest way and has experience then I will at the very least add that perspective to my "pile" of things to consider. And if, as is the case with several folks on this board, many people who fit that description all seem to have a positive view of either a vendor or a seller or another user's opinions, I will usually give that additional weight. I rarely ask directly for recommendations from anyone and tend to be a self-searcher, but will try to find many perspectives to build a more holistic "model". People who are clearly knowledgeable but who do not push or throw that knowledge around also get extra credence from me. People who think they know everything are often the least knowledgeable but the most insecure about needing to seem to be expert. The most knowledgeable have nothing to prove and know any knowledge they have comes from having at some time in the past admitting that they didn't know.

In the end, though, all I can do is gather information, ask questions (or research the answers myself in forum archives, other websites, sites purporting to provide information, etc.), review a vendor's sales pitch and sales model, consider my own tendencies, and make a reasonable choice about what is likely to be a good pick. I consider the third item very important - different vendors are very obviously taking different approaches with different marketing (from a ton to almost none) and, in some cases, a different picture of what they want us to believe we're saying about ourselves when we buy tea from them. And I also try to take reviews on vendor websites with a grain of salt - a good example is Yunnan Sourcing. I like YS, I've bought from them in the past and they fulfill a very useful role in being sort of the "superstore" of the online Chinese tea world. But any website I visit where almost every review is a rave review essentially makes me doubt not the vendor but the reliability of those leaving the reviews, kind of going back to the concept of overuse of superlatives.

I feel like I've said a ton and yet am sort of all over the place - basically, recommendations are a useful piece of building that model where the output is hopefully tea we will enjoy, but it's just a piece and we have to consider human limitations and psychology when using them. And I rarely solicit direct recommendations, instead preferring to do a lot of reading and a lot of digging. And sometimes I will follow what others seem to say is a good tea and other times I will buy something others say is not good because I want to see for myself and also have that learning experience. No one can build up our experience for us. And then sometimes I buy things that are completely outside my comfort zone and about which I know little just to force myself to stay diverse and keep chipping away at that block of "tea ignorance". And also sometimes i just randomly buy something on impulse because what the hell, why not? :D
Sorry, I’m reading Proust at the moment and do not have time to begin another novel. 🤷🏻‍♂️
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belewfripp
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Sat Mar 12, 2022 2:53 pm

Baisao wrote:
Sat Mar 12, 2022 2:08 pm
belewfripp wrote:
Sat Mar 12, 2022 1:44 pm

...

I feel like I've said a ton and yet am sort of all over the place - basically, recommendations are a useful piece of building that model where the output is hopefully tea we will enjoy, but it's just a piece and we have to consider human limitations and psychology when using them. And I rarely solicit direct recommendations, instead preferring to do a lot of reading and a lot of digging. And sometimes I will follow what others seem to say is a good tea and other times I will buy something others say is not good because I want to see for myself and also have that learning experience. No one can build up our experience for us. And then sometimes I buy things that are completely outside my comfort zone and about which I know little just to force myself to stay diverse and keep chipping away at that block of "tea ignorance". And also sometimes i just randomly buy something on impulse because what the hell, why not? :D
Sorry, I’m reading Proust at the moment and do not have time to begin another novel. 🤷🏻‍♂️
TL;DR version: I agree with what other people said, i rarely ask for direct recommendations preferring to do research and reading on my own, and pay more attention to the experience and honesty of the person offering the opinion than to whether that person's taste is going to match mine when adding it to my pile of potentially useful information.
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mbanu
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Sat Mar 12, 2022 2:57 pm

belewfripp wrote:
Sat Mar 12, 2022 1:44 pm
I consider the third item very important - different vendors are very obviously taking different approaches with different marketing (from a ton to almost none) and, in some cases, a different picture of what they want us to believe we're saying about ourselves when we buy tea from them And I also try to take reviews on vendor websites with a grain of salt - a good example is Yunnan Sourcing. I like YS, I've bought from them in the past and they fulfill a very useful role in being sort of the "superstore" of the online Chinese tea world. But any website I visit where almost every review is a rave review essentially makes me doubt not the vendor but the reliability of those leaving the reviews, kind of going back to the concept of overuse of superlatives.
I think part of the blind spot is that Americans assume that marketing looks a certain way due to legal protections that shape the way it can look, making some types of marketing seem like no marketing because they have never been exposed to that style of marketing. When sales go global, however, these legal protections tend to break, and the old tactics are reintroduced to people who are not used to looking for them. Like when an American goes to the grocery store, they never look for counterfeits. The idea that they could go to a Walmart to get Captain Crunch and the box wouldn't be real would never cross most Americans' minds. (The idea that the store itself could be a fake Walmart would be mind-blowing.) That counterfeiting impulse was channeled through lawsuits into discount-brands. That the fellow shopper in that aisle who suggests a particular discount-brand is actually a paid contractor for that brand pretending not to be would also rarely cross someone's mind, but paid reviews are common in some other places, and thus are also common online.
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belewfripp
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Sat Mar 12, 2022 3:23 pm

mbanu wrote:
Sat Mar 12, 2022 2:57 pm
I think part of the blind spot is that Americans assume that marketing looks a certain way due to legal protections that shape the way it can look, making some types of marketing seem like no marketing because they have never been exposed to that style of marketing. When sales go global, however, these legal protections tend to break, and the old tactics are reintroduced to people who are not used to looking for them. Like when an American goes to the grocery store, they never look for counterfeits. The idea that they could go to a Walmart to get Captain Crunch and the box wouldn't be real would never cross most Americans' minds. (The idea that the store itself could be a fake Walmart would be mind-blowing.) That counterfeiting impulse was channeled through lawsuits into discount-brands. That the fellow shopper in that aisle who suggests a particular discount-brand is actually a paid contractor for that brand pretending not to be would also rarely cross someone's mind, but paid reviews are common in some other places, and thus are also common online.
That's a really good and interesting point - it's absolutely true that no one would expect to buy a fake bag of Doritos - the legal restrictions you mention establish some level of floor on the quality of the good. And that would definitely give Americans (such as me) a blind spot when it comes deceptive practices in online tea sales (and other consumable goods). People who deal with collectibles are in better shape, I would guess, given the number of fakes, frauds and disingenuous information involved in those markets, at least online.
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