Where did you get your tea education?

GaoShan
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Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:16 pm

Thanks for these links. This blog is obviously one to check out. I've read that gongfu brewing is a recent phenomenon, though most people on this forum would agree that it produces good results. I found these comments on how flavour relates to quality to be especially interesting:

"But how are the limitations of language to be overcome when discussing flavor? The answer is found in experience. The more experience one has at tasting, the clearer, and more accurate the identification of flavors become. It’s like the answer to that old joke “How do I get to Carnegie Hall.” Practice, practice, practice. With practice, and as one becomes better at identifying the various flavors in tea, one also finds that there is increasing agreement with others as to what constitutes good tea. And this brings us directly to the issue of assessing quality.

The next obstacle to scale is: “what does quality mean?” Although we may be able to determine the flavor of a given tea objectively, how do we decide whether this flavor is better or worse than other flavors; what standards are used? Here I introduce the observation that all standards of quality are culturally rooted and are culturally relative. That is, to be meaningful, every evaluation must be grounded in a cultural context. In this manner, it makes sense to say Bach is a better composer for organ than Bruckner, even if one prefers Bruckner (a wild stretch for sure, but possible I suppose.) But it makes no sense to say that Western classical music is better than Chinese classical music even if we do have a preference for one over the other for the two are products of entirely different cultural contexts. Further, the fact that culture is a social construct does not confer license to claim that quality is a subjective thing. For standards of quality to be subjective, culture would need to be an individual construct as opposed to collective one; and it is not. .

We also can see now that although quality and preference may influence one another, essentially they are independent concepts. They are manifestly different things. As such preference, which is a subjective stance toward a product, in this case tea, cannot serve to make quality evaluations of tea. We cannot contend that the quality of a tea is in the eye of the beholder. We like what we like but that fact doesn’t make what we like good."

These are interesting observations. Even if you have a lot of experience drinking tea and know what you like, if you don't know what is the standard of quality for a particular culture, you may very well prefer Bruckner to Bach. (I like Beethoven, Schubert, Telemann, and Purcell, but acknowledge that Bach is the better composer.) And while preference will ultimately determine which teas you buy, I'd like to get an idea of what, according to Taiwanese culture, are some really good high mountain oolongs. Ultimately, I'll probably end up buying what I like, but I want to know what is objectively good tea, if such a thing exists.

The discussion of tea vendor profits is also illuminating. Even when I've dealt with farmers directly, prices have been about the same, though at least I know, or hope, that the money is going to the farmer.
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Bok
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Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:31 am

GaoShan wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:16 pm
I've read that gongfu brewing is a recent phenomenon
... ahem, as recently as the Ming dynasty yes :lol:

Just because soemthing is written down, does not mean it's true.
Andrew S
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Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:52 am

I think that the best way to learn about tea is just to drink it, and the best way for people to learn about it in the Western world is to buy some teas from online stores that seem to have a good reputation, try to work out which styles you like the most, and then just keep drinking more and more within those styles. It's a slow process during which you'll make mistakes, but that's important in itself.

Exploring different teas from different sources is fun and useful, but I think that it is equally important to brew the same tea, or similar teas, over and over again, not so much as a strict comparison, but more like a routine. They're two different ways of learning more, and I think that they can teach you different things.

When I was only just starting to learn about tea, I also wanted to know what the 'correct' parameters were for brewing, so that I knew that what I was tasting was the way that it was 'meant to' taste, and so that I had a 'correct' starting point from which to experiment. A general starting point does help, but there are few wrong ways to brew tea, and we learn both what works for us (in the sense of an overall style, or how long infusions should usually be, or how much leaf to use) and how different teas respond to different methods.

As to acquiring knowledge outside Asia, it is of course very useful to have places like this forum, and blogs and websites can help as well. However, I think that it is easy to be lured into the mistake of thinking that someone who writes or talks about tea must know what they're writing or talking about, whereas I think that the old aphorisms usually hold true, that he who knows most speaks the least, and that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. That's why a place like this can be so useful; people here don't pretend to 'teach' others, but instead simply post about their own thoughts and experiences, even if it is just what they're brewing this morning, and I learn more from that type of discussion than from some vendors or 'reviewers' who seem to suggest or imply that they have some special knowledge.

In my first decade or so of my life in tea, I read various blog posts from people, some of whom have continued posting (like MarshalN and Mattcha), and many of whom have stopped. At the time, I read those posts to learn from those who knew more than I did. However, in retrospect, I appreciate that they themselves were on their own journeys to learn more, and my knowledge grew alongside theirs. I think it was a time when the Western world became more aware of tea through such pioneering blogs, and you can see their own development as tea drinkers as you read through their old posts, like an archive of moments in their tea adventures.

In terms of objectively-high quality tea, I agree with you that it is useful to get people's recommendations about what is a 'high quality' tea to try, to calibrate your senses and to see what is out there. I don't know enough about high mountain tea yet to help you much there. However, perhaps bear in mind that the qualities that make some teas outstanding can be subtle. My favourite high-mountain teas so far aren't the ones that taste the most complex or have the strongest fragrances, but rather those which taste pure, refreshing, and remind me of nature. However, I'm sure that others prefer different aspects of high-quality teas, and that's all part of the fun.

Andrew
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LeoFox
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Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:40 am

GaoShan
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Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:46 am

Andrew S wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:52 am
I think that the best way to learn about tea is just to drink it, and the best way for people to learn about it in the Western world is to buy some teas from online stores that seem to have a good reputation, try to work out which styles you like the most, and then just keep drinking more and more within those styles. It's a slow process during which you'll make mistakes, but that's important in itself.

Exploring different teas from different sources is fun and useful, but I think that it is equally important to brew the same tea, or similar teas, over and over again, not so much as a strict comparison, but more like a routine. They're two different ways of learning more, and I think that they can teach you different things.

When I was only just starting to learn about tea, I also wanted to know what the 'correct' parameters were for brewing, so that I knew that what I was tasting was the way that it was 'meant to' taste, and so that I had a 'correct' starting point from which to experiment. A general starting point does help, but there are few wrong ways to brew tea, and we learn both what works for us (in the sense of an overall style, or how long infusions should usually be, or how much leaf to use) and how different teas respond to different methods.

As to acquiring knowledge outside Asia, it is of course very useful to have places like this forum, and blogs and websites can help as well. However, I think that it is easy to be lured into the mistake of thinking that someone who writes or talks about tea must know what they're writing or talking about, whereas I think that the old aphorisms usually hold true, that he who knows most speaks the least, and that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. That's why a place like this can be so useful; people here don't pretend to 'teach' others, but instead simply post about their own thoughts and experiences, even if it is just what they're brewing this morning, and I learn more from that type of discussion than from some vendors or 'reviewers' who seem to suggest or imply that they have some special knowledge.

In my first decade or so of my life in tea, I read various blog posts from people, some of whom have continued posting (like MarshalN and Mattcha), and many of whom have stopped. At the time, I read those posts to learn from those who knew more than I did. However, in retrospect, I appreciate that they themselves were on their own journeys to learn more, and my knowledge grew alongside theirs. I think it was a time when the Western world became more aware of tea through such pioneering blogs, and you can see their own development as tea drinkers as you read through their old posts, like an archive of moments in their tea adventures.

In terms of objectively-high quality tea, I agree with you that it is useful to get people's recommendations about what is a 'high quality' tea to try, to calibrate your senses and to see what is out there. I don't know enough about high mountain tea yet to help you much there. However, perhaps bear in mind that the qualities that make some teas outstanding can be subtle. My favourite high-mountain teas so far aren't the ones that taste the most complex or have the strongest fragrances, but rather those which taste pure, refreshing, and remind me of nature. However, I'm sure that others prefer different aspects of high-quality teas, and that's all part of the fun.

Andrew
Thanks for your reply. I've been doing this tea thing for roughly six years, which makes me kind of an amateur in these circles. I've definitely tried several companies and have an idea of what I like, but know that I could improve in terms of identifying flavours and creating the best steeping parameters for each tea. Your suggestion to brew the same tea for a few days has some appeal, as even when I weigh the leaves and use the same water temperature, it sometimes tastes different from day to day.

I agree that blogs and this site can help me with steeping parameters and flavour identification. I know that their advice should be taken with a grain of salt, as no one has the authority to say how certain types of tea "should" be made. This is kind of the opposite of other interests I have like English literature and classical music, where critics are more than happy to say what the "Western canon" is and how it should be appreciated, even if readers/listeners have different preferences.

Drinking and pursuing what I like has also led me to specialize quite heavily in certain tea types. I drink a lot of Taiwanese high mountain oolongs, especially from Shan Lin Xi. I also like Darjeelings, Yunnan and Fujian black teas, Taiwanese hongcha, and a few white teas. I can't help but think that a better tea education might have helped me appreciate Chinese and Japanese greens, Taiwanese roasted oolongs, puerh, and Wuyi oolongs. My knowledge of Chinese tea is a lot less comprehensive than it should be.

I guess there is no magic bullet to become knowledgeable about tea. I was sort of hoping that courses might have helped, but the general consensus is that you need to do it on your own. While this is by no means a hardship, I'll keep an eye out for tips from forums like this and try to slowly expand my knowledge base. :)
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Balthazar
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Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:52 am

Interesting topic!
GaoShan wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:46 am
This is kind of the opposite of other interests I have like English literature and classical music, where critics are more than happy to say what the "Western canon" is and how it should be appreciated, even if readers/listeners have different preferences.
But I assume you are enjoying these in a mostly passive way (listening to music composed by and performed by others, reading novels written by others)? There are literary canons, but are there equally recognized canons on the best writing techniques? Brewing tea requires quite a bit of active skills too. Perhaps a culinary analogy works better here: Many people have strong opinions on the best dishes of different countries, but rarely as strong an opinion on what method to use, and the specific ratio between the ingredients, to arrive at the finished dish. (Or so I would think.) There are general recipes and these are very helpful places to start out, but over time most cooks will make small or big adjustments in line with their own preferences.
GaoShan wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:46 am
Drinking and pursuing what I like has also led me to specialize quite heavily in certain tea types. I drink a lot of Taiwanese high mountain oolongs, especially from Shan Lin Xi. I also like Darjeelings, Yunnan and Fujian black teas, Taiwanese hongcha, and a few white teas. I can't help but think that a better tea education might have helped me appreciate Chinese and Japanese greens, Taiwanese roasted oolongs, puerh, and Wuyi oolongs. My knowledge of Chinese tea is a lot less comprehensive than it should be.
It's not too late to branch out though, if you really want to. I started out very broad myself, buying dozens of samples from all major categories. Over the years I've come to understand better what I like (and what my body agrees with) which has led me to narrow down my focus considerably. But this is true for me as a person in many areas, more of a specialist than a generalist and not very high on curiosity. I don't think a better education about those categories of tea that I rarely drink would lead me to appreciate them more (beyond in a purely intellectual sense).

(I also no longer experience that "fear of missing out" that I think affect many drinkers early on, when they read enthusiastic reviews about a given tea and panic about its availability. But that's a digression.)

I personally believe that the best way to learn about how to brew a specific type of tea is 1) brewing lots of it and 2) brewing lots of it together with someone who knows this type of tea well, if you are lucky enough to live close to such a person. For many of us written interactions on forums such as this is the closest we can come to 2) these days :)
Hmm
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Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:08 am

I wondering if there are benchmark teas from e.g. certain vendors, that we can say this is the "standard" or "classic", which all other teas in the same category should be compared to. Or are there so many other factors, such as brewing methods, such that the leaf itself isn't as important.
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Bok
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Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:23 am

@Hmm benchmark teas is maybe easier to achieve with Puerh, all other teas change too much each season in my opinion.

Maybe Japanese teas are also easier to benchmark as they are highly consistent in their mainstream offerings. Ippodo teas come to mind for example. Probably not the most interesting teas ever, but certainly at a high and reliable standard.

For most teas I can’t think of what that benchmark would even be? And from the perspective of who? Locals? Farmers? “Tea people” ? Foreigners? So many different benchmarks will exist, I think it’s too complicated. In any case one would need to define benchmark more narrowly: for example, most representative in reasonable quality Gaoshan available to the Western market, etc.

Not to mention it would lead to a lot of disagreement and arguments as it depends so much on individual previous exposure or lack there of other teas.
GaoShan
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Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:37 am

Balthazar wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:52 am
Interesting topic!
GaoShan wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:46 am
This is kind of the opposite of other interests I have like English literature and classical music, where critics are more than happy to say what the "Western canon" is and how it should be appreciated, even if readers/listeners have different preferences.
But I assume you are enjoying these in a mostly passive way (listening to music composed by and performed by others, reading novels written by others)? There are literary canons, but are there equally recognized canons on the best writing techniques? Brewing tea requires quite a bit of active skills too. Perhaps a culinary analogy works better here: Many people have strong opinions on the best dishes of different countries, but rarely as strong an opinion on what method to use, and the specific ratio between the ingredients, to arrive at the finished dish. (Or so I would think.) There are general recipes and these are very helpful places to start out, but over time most cooks will make small or big adjustments in line with their own preferences.

If there are literary, musical, or culinary canons, I'd assume they'd indirectly dictate how something is made to adhere to those principles, even if it isn't spelled out in the criticism (i.e., when to use first-person narrative, which conventions are appropriate for which genres). There are tons of writing handbooks trying to teach aspiring novelists, just as there are lots of cookbooks trying to teach aspiring chefs. Yes, cooks do tweak recipes to suit their preferences, but I think they have an idea of what they want to achieve. Nonetheless, your analogy to cooking, where the participant contributes their skill to the process instead of consuming something passively, is an interesting one. I'm reminded of my mother trying to make green curry for me when she hadn't tasted it herself and getting predictably unconventional results. (It was still good, but it wasn't really green curry.) I worry that we're like that when brewing tea, having never tasted it as it's "supposed" to be made.
GaoShan wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:46 am
Drinking and pursuing what I like has also led me to specialize quite heavily in certain tea types. I drink a lot of Taiwanese high mountain oolongs, especially from Shan Lin Xi. I also like Darjeelings, Yunnan and Fujian black teas, Taiwanese hongcha, and a few white teas. I can't help but think that a better tea education might have helped me appreciate Chinese and Japanese greens, Taiwanese roasted oolongs, puerh, and Wuyi oolongs. My knowledge of Chinese tea is a lot less comprehensive than it should be.
It's not too late to branch out though, if you really want to. I started out very broad myself, buying dozens of samples from all major categories. Over the years I've come to understand better what I like (and what my body agrees with) which has led me to narrow down my focus considerably. But this is true for me as a person in many areas, more of a specialist than a generalist and not very high on curiosity. I don't think a better education about those categories of tea that I rarely drink would lead me to appreciate them more (beyond in a purely intellectual sense).

(I also no longer experience that "fear of missing out" that I think affect many drinkers early on, when they read enthusiastic reviews about a given tea and panic about its availability. But that's a digression.)

I personally believe that the best way to learn about how to brew a specific type of tea is 1) brewing lots of it and 2) brewing lots of it together with someone who knows this type of tea well, if you are lucky enough to live close to such a person. For many of us written interactions on forums such as this is the closest we can come to 2) these days :)
I agree, some of the desire to try all the tea is based on the fear of missing out. I'm not terribly bothered that I don't appreciate every type of tea, but especially for roasted teas, I wonder if trying better examples would make me enjoy them more. As you said, sampling widely and discussing my results on forums like this might be the answer. :)
GaoShan
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Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:49 am

Bok wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:23 am
Hmm benchmark teas is maybe easier to achieve with Puerh, all other teas change too much each season in my opinion.

Maybe Japanese teas are also easier to benchmark as they are highly consistent in their mainstream offerings. Ippodo teas come to mind for example. Probably not the most interesting teas ever, but certainly at a high and reliable standard.

For most teas I can’t think of what that benchmark would even be? And from the perspective of who? Locals? Farmers? “Tea people” ? Foreigners? So many different benchmarks will exist, I think it’s too complicated. In any case one would need to define benchmark more narrowly: for example, most representative in reasonable quality Gaoshan available to the Western market, etc.

Not to mention it would lead to a lot of disagreement and arguments as it depends so much on individual previous exposure or lack there of other teas.
Yes, finding benchmark gaoshan might be more difficult than I initially thought. I did sort of hope that if I bought two or three high-end teas and brewed them somewhat correctly, I would understand what I was aiming for when buying these types of oolong. This is perhaps a bit naïve, but I did hope that narrowing the definition of benchmark to reasonable quality oolong available overseas would yield something actionable. Still, trying lots of oolongs to understand what I like isn't the worst thing in the world. :P
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LeoFox
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Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:08 pm

A relevant passage from a favorite of mine- here about the appreciation of paintings in a museum. Might as well be about tea.
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Hmm
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Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:48 am

Bok wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:23 am
Hmm benchmark teas is maybe easier to achieve with Puerh, all other teas change too much each season in my opinion.

Maybe Japanese teas are also easier to benchmark as they are highly consistent in their mainstream offerings. Ippodo teas come to mind for example. Probably not the most interesting teas ever, but certainly at a high and reliable standard.

For most teas I can’t think of what that benchmark would even be? And from the perspective of who? Locals? Farmers? “Tea people” ? Foreigners? So many different benchmarks will exist, I think it’s too complicated. In any case one would need to define benchmark more narrowly: for example, most representative in reasonable quality Gaoshan available to the Western market, etc.

Not to mention it would lead to a lot of disagreement and arguments as it depends so much on individual previous exposure or lack there of other teas.
Hmm. I wonder if it's because they way tea is grown isn't really treated as a "science", in terms of yearly attempting to consistently give the same inputs, therefore getting a more consistent output, and instead grown intuitively where whatever the farmer gives whatever he believes is needed. It seems to me at least e.g. new world wines are fairly consistent year to year, due to the fact that the grapes are grown in environments where factors such as sun and water, fertilizer, etc. can be mostly controlled. Perhaps Japan tries to apply this method?
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Bok
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Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:27 am

@Hmm maybe.

But consistency comes also often with lack of character. As always there is probably a middle way of scientific control and a bit of letting go to allow for something unexpected to happen.
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LeoFox
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Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:52 am

Hmmm, most Japanese teas are blended for consistency
GaoShan
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Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:53 am

Bok wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:31 am
GaoShan wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:16 pm
I've read that gongfu brewing is a recent phenomenon
... ahem, as recently as the Ming dynasty yes :lol:

Just because soemthing is written down, does not mean it's true.
You're right, I may have taken that article's assertions on faith. It's hard to understand the history of gongfu brewing when so many people have such differing opinions about it. Regardless of how old it is, I think the general concensus is that it hasn't risen to prominence until recently, though feel free to let me know if this is just a Westerner's view of the situation.
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