Found some really old tea (19 years!) Can someone identify?

.m.
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Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:12 pm

faj wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:25 pm
Victoria wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:30 pm
It lets the tea awaken after a resting period. Basically, the tea is allowed to ‘open up’ a little with the small amount of oxygen and moisture introduced after opening and resealing the pack, or putting loose in a canister.
Although I guess information about this is not necessarily abundant, I would be curious to know what physical or chemical processes are at play, as this phenomenon is usually described with words such as "awakening", "breathing" and "opening up" which give an image rather than an explanation.

When you have an old tea package, either it was hermetic or it was not. If it was not hermetic, then opening it should not let more moisture or oxygen in than there already was. If it was hermetic (a tall order, it seems), then the moisture level should not have dropped that much compared to when it was sealed, as I do not think the conditions in a bag at ambient temperatures could cause water molecules to be involved in a chemical reaction (I could be wrong here). The oxygen, I guess, could have been depleted or reduced because of chemical reactions. But usually, the absence of oxygen is associated with preservation, and adding oxygen would, if anything, cause reactions one would associate with aging, not rejuvenation.

So, to sum up, this is something that kind of puzzles me. Of course, the world is complex, and there are processes involved I am not even aware of.
It's a bit like letting wine breathe before drinking, or even decanting it. Or letting whisky/cognac etc breathe; it always tastes sweeter and smoother from the middle of the bottle then from a full one. In case of tea the change can be quite drastic in some cases. It might have to do with oxidation of aromatic compounds. In long term oxidation is usually not a good thing, but on shorter term it can do nice things.
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Bok
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Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:44 pm

@faj i would also be curious to understand the science behind it, for now I can just attest that something happens and that doing so is beneficial.

Even better results are achieved when stored in porcelain jars for also unknown reasons. Long and short term storage.

Adding oxygen by slightly lifting the lid while pouring is another thing that somehow improves some brews. Again, an unsolved case.
.m.
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Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:17 pm

Bok wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:44 pm
Adding oxygen by slightly lifting the lid while pouring is another thing that somehow improves some brews. Again, an unsolved case.
Interesting. Must try. Thanks. :D
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Bok
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Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:26 pm

.m. wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:17 pm
Bok wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:44 pm
Adding oxygen by slightly lifting the lid while pouring is another thing that somehow improves some brews. Again, an unsolved case.
Interesting. Must try. Thanks. :D
Don’t blame me for broken lids though...
faj
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Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:39 pm

Bok wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:44 pm
Adding oxygen by slightly lifting the lid while pouring is another thing that somehow improves some brews.
May I ask how that adds oxygen?
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Bok
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Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:57 pm

faj wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:39 pm
May I ask how that adds oxygen?
Not firm on the physics, but wouldn't it add more air through the suction?
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Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:37 pm

Bok wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:57 pm
Not firm on the physics, but wouldn't it add more air through the suction?
The solubility of gases in water depends on temperature and pressure. The hotter the water, the less gasses it will dissolve. The higher the pressure, the more gasses will dissolve.

When pouring tea, the gas pressure inside and outside of the pot is basically the same*. Lifting the lid will not increase the pressure inside the teapot. The temperature of the tea is the same too whether the lid is lifted or not. So I would not expect the amount of oxygen dissolved to vary.

Lifting the lid may increase the flow a bit, especially if the lid is tight and the air hole very small. A quicker pour could mean a shorter infusion. Maybe that could make a difference in the result.

* Well, if you are going to nitpick, you could say that the inside of the teapot is at a slightly lower pressure. This is why, by plugging the spout, it is possible to restrict or stop the flow of water : the pressure difference compensates for the weight of the water. As soon as you have a small air hole, I would expect the pressure difference to be negligible under realistic scenarios.
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Bok
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Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:41 pm

faj wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:37 pm
Lifting the lid may increase the flow a bit, especially if the lid is tight and the air hole very small. A quicker pour could mean a shorter infusion. Maybe that could make a difference in the result.
Thanks for the explanation. That might be it, something is definitely happening.
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Baisao
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Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:30 am

Bok wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:06 am
Usually, I’d start with a thank you.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Baisao
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Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:37 am

Bok wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:41 pm
faj wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:37 pm
Lifting the lid may increase the flow a bit, especially if the lid is tight and the air hole very small. A quicker pour could mean a shorter infusion. Maybe that could make a difference in the result.
Thanks for the explanation. That might be it, something is definitely happening.
I always thought it had to do with changing the internal shape of the vessel, like how changing the shape of our mouths can produce different flavors/sensations when drinking tea or wine. Some shapes are more favorable than others. We know that vessel shape affects the end product, so why wouldn’t making small changes by lifting the lid on some tea pots?

So many mysteries!

@faj, you have the right balance of scientific questioning and acceptance for what is unknown. I tip my hat to you!
faj
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Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:30 am

Baisao wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:37 am
faj, you have the right balance of scientific questioning and acceptance for what is unknown. I tip my hat to you!
Science is a human endeavor the first pillar of which is recognizing we do not understand everything, and even the best scientific explanation is only our "best theory for now". True science is very much concerned with exploring the limits of our understanding, and trying to slowly increase and improve the coverage. There are many day-to-day phenomena that have never been seriously or exhaustively studied, and that cannot be fully explained by the kind of "basic engineering textbook science" I have been exposed to. I like to use that limited knowledge to see if and how it applies to tea, but it leads at best to a partial understanding, and at worse could be misleading.

Drinking tea involves a mix of objective and subjective factors, and it can be hard to tell one from the other. I know first hand that the impact of teapots on the taste of tea, though not satisfactorily explained by science, is not placebo (not entirely, at least). So when @Bok says lifting the lid makes a difference, even though I think it is unlikely to be because of more oxygen being dissolved, I do not mistake that to mean his observation is false, and it does not mean I am "right" either. It just means I feel I am unable to form an explanation that feels credible to me about it.

What I do know for sure, is that he has a lot more experience with tea than I have, as well as first-hand experience of that technique (which I don't), so there is no way I could credibly claim lifting the lid does nothing to the taste of tea just because I cannot figure a reason why.
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Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:24 am

@faj haha, too much praise... I’m just having tea.

I would also encourage everyone never to take any givens persons advice on something as the ultimate truth - always see for yourself and keep an open mind.
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Baisao
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Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:46 pm

Bok wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:24 am
I would also encourage everyone never to take any givens persons advice on something as the ultimate truth - always see for yourself and keep an open mind.
I agree. I think we might be surprised by how different our tea is if all of us sat down and had tea with each other.

I've seen fads come and go. For example, it used to be that the popular opinion was that iron was bad for tea. Now they say it is good for tea.

The only real advice I follow is my own: sit and listen to tea... for years.
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Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:18 am

I second Victoria's advice to let the tea rest a bit. Also, try brewing it in a few different ways. If it's too strong/bitter, try to reduce the amount of leaf, or use a thinner vessel that cools down faster.
If the base material was good, a lot of these teas could be salvageable.

You want to distinguish bitter from sour. Teas with a high humidity content (i.e. on the greener end) could develop sour notes. Some plumminess can be good, but if your teas are too sour changing brewing parameters won't be that helpful. However, you could toast the teas for several hours at 80c to dry them out. If even that isn't sufficient, they might need a reroast, but that's a bit more complicated to do at home.
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