I know this topic has been touched upon already. I'm not looking to rehash a hot topic. I'm just curious how you all feel about organic, conventional, fertilized, and pesticide-free farming, and what you use personally. One over the other, or a combination of all of the above. I transitioned to mostly all organic foods over the years. It wasn't a sudden revelation or a turn of the switch kind of thing. I slowly started buying more organic fruits and vegetables many years ago, and these days I consume mostly all organic fruits, vegetables, and tea. However, until the last couple of months--when I started buying organic green tea from Japan online--I had been buying conventional loose-leaf green tea from Itoen and Yamamotoyama from my local Asian supermarkets.
I think we all know the costs one can incur from purchasing organic foods. I didn't realize how much some of the premium, organic teas cost. I'm thinking about allowing myself to purchase a mix of organic and conventional green tea, in order to help alleviate some of the expenses. I learned about Hojo tea and some of their pesticide free sencha teas. I don't see any prices listed on their website, so I emailed them an inquiry.
How many of you out there strictly drink organic, and if so, why do you feel so strongly about drinking only organic? Ironically, even though I've been eating organic foods for years now, I continued consuming conventional loose-leaf green tea. The simple reason for that is the Japanese and Korean supermarkets in my area, where I purchase my green loose-leaf tea does not sell organic. I only buy the organic green tea in bags, from Trader Joe's or Choice or Allegro.
I'm just thinking a little about this because I see how quickly one can burn through a 100gm bag of tea. It can get costly drinking only organic loose-leaf green tea. It's not a matter of being able to afford it or not--it's more an issue of how much one is willing to spend on drinking tea.
Organic, conventional, fertilized, and pesticide-free
It's not only a question of cost: it's a question of availability too. Are you willing to restrict yourself to teas whose growers were able to get--or claim to have gotten--organic certification? Many small farmers (and of other crops, not just tea) find the cost of being certified too expensive, and certification may not be on the radar in some producing areas at all.
I like to get organic where similar quality is available, but don't limit myself to organic varieties.
I like to get organic where similar quality is available, but don't limit myself to organic varieties.
I think that is very sound advice. I don't feel too strongly about drinking only organic tea, and as you suggested, limiting myself to only farmers who have become certified. If the quality of the tea is good, and I'm purchasing from a reputable supplier, I would not be concerned about drinking conventional tea. I've been doing it for years, even after I made the switch to organic foods.
Thanks for your feedback.
Thanks for your feedback.
I have a suspicion that organic isn't seen as such a big deal in Japan as it is over here. So it's probably not generally worthwhile to pursue organic certification even for those that practice organic farming anyway, except for larger farms and/or those that sell in the west.
If it matters to you, both o-cha and yunomi offer a decent selection of JAS-certified organic options.
My personal take is that Japanese standards on food safety are very high, so I really don't worry about my tea being toxic, even if not organic. I am more concerned when buying tea from countries with lax or no standards, and would be more likely to look for organic options there.
If it matters to you, both o-cha and yunomi offer a decent selection of JAS-certified organic options.
My personal take is that Japanese standards on food safety are very high, so I really don't worry about my tea being toxic, even if not organic. I am more concerned when buying tea from countries with lax or no standards, and would be more likely to look for organic options there.
@VanenbwVanenbw wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2019 4:24 pmI think we all know the costs one can incur from purchasing organic foods. I didn't realize how much some of the premium, organic teas cost. I'm thinking about allowing myself to purchase a mix of organic and conventional green tea, in order to help alleviate some of the expenses. I learned about Hojo tea and some of their pesticide free sencha teas. I don't see any prices listed on their website, so I emailed them an inquiry.
Hojo tea price list.
https://hojotea.com/img/tealineup10.pdf
Last edited by Victoria on Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Mod edit: added referenced quote
Reason: Mod edit: added referenced quote
unless it is included as part of the national regulation in places like China and Japan keep in mind that organic does not mean pesticide free. if one's concern is specifically pesticides and residue, then look for testing or certification for that.
Not to turn this into a food sustainability lecture but... I don't know how regulation works in other countries but at least in the US organic certification is extremely expensive and a very long process, to the point that many small farmers can't afford it. then, even though they may have better and more sustainable practices than other farms they then cannot demand the same price for their produce as an organic certified producer can who may in fact just be a factory farm or large agribusiness conglomerate. people have the ridiculous notion that organic = healthy and good. it does not. while I have no love for Monsanto and similar companies there is also a ridiculous amount of disinformation about what gmo food is and can be. here in Germany the demand is very high for organic products, and with groceries here being probably cheapest of any major industrialized nation and food prices are highly subsidized. however all the organic products have the detrimental effect that farmers in places like Romania wind up getting squashed on pricing or bought out and pushed off their farming land by large companies to produce cheap organic products for the German market. also if a genuine concern is sustainability to me buying organic products that ship from long distances doesn't make sense. personally I prefer to eat local and seasonal- buy from smaller and local farmers, especially those who use sustainable practices. small farmers are much less likely to use a lot of or particularly harsh pesticides given that they would be spraying them themselves on their own land. I am very lucky to have an affordable permaculture farm nearby who also specialize in growing heirloom local varieties of vegetables, so I am able to buy almost all of my non-dry foods from them. it is a real privilege to have them nearby and to be able to afford it, though things like food co-ops can help bring the pricing down if you are lucky to have one nearby. now if only we could grow and wet-pile tea here in Germany...
Not to turn this into a food sustainability lecture but... I don't know how regulation works in other countries but at least in the US organic certification is extremely expensive and a very long process, to the point that many small farmers can't afford it. then, even though they may have better and more sustainable practices than other farms they then cannot demand the same price for their produce as an organic certified producer can who may in fact just be a factory farm or large agribusiness conglomerate. people have the ridiculous notion that organic = healthy and good. it does not. while I have no love for Monsanto and similar companies there is also a ridiculous amount of disinformation about what gmo food is and can be. here in Germany the demand is very high for organic products, and with groceries here being probably cheapest of any major industrialized nation and food prices are highly subsidized. however all the organic products have the detrimental effect that farmers in places like Romania wind up getting squashed on pricing or bought out and pushed off their farming land by large companies to produce cheap organic products for the German market. also if a genuine concern is sustainability to me buying organic products that ship from long distances doesn't make sense. personally I prefer to eat local and seasonal- buy from smaller and local farmers, especially those who use sustainable practices. small farmers are much less likely to use a lot of or particularly harsh pesticides given that they would be spraying them themselves on their own land. I am very lucky to have an affordable permaculture farm nearby who also specialize in growing heirloom local varieties of vegetables, so I am able to buy almost all of my non-dry foods from them. it is a real privilege to have them nearby and to be able to afford it, though things like food co-ops can help bring the pricing down if you are lucky to have one nearby. now if only we could grow and wet-pile tea here in Germany...
it is difficult to define a "reputable" vendor , since the reputation is based on customers review , which in this case, I've never heard of the review like : I've purchase an organic tea from ***** vendor , then paid for an expensive pest test and Yes, this tea is organic. Trusted vendor!
In fact I've heard other way around , when wholesale buyer ( tea shop ) was buying an organic tea from reputable vendor and parcel was checked for pest in destination country ( by local customs ) and it failed the test terribly ( kinda big numbers ) . The name of the buyer was issued on official page ( that his parcel has been caught and not passed to the country ) of the institution proceeding those tests and of course some competitor didn't wait and re-posted it on FB as well. So kinda damaged the name of the buyer.
Yet the selling vendor after the apology still counts as being reputable and keep claiming doing personally some pest tests.
I'm not trying to throw stones on anybody , but I'm trying to explain ( and was said here already ) , that EU tests ( which are more strict than US ) are quite expensive. So one needs to thing what is real and what is just a marketing. When I go to farmer and buy lets say 10-20kg of some green tea, then pay like 800$ for the test which might show "red" , what Im going to do? I've lost money for tea and test.
If goes green, I'm lucky and can add those extra 800$ on top of the price. But if you find genuine organic green tea which can pass those tests, that tea is already very expensive, so adding another 800$ to this batch would cause that you will sell , if lucky , few kg 1st year, and 1kg second , then rest will give for free to your friends.
We have tried to sell organic EU certified green tea, nobody interested because when 50g of Biluochun costs less than 3$ , the organic one in same grade was almost 6$. Many people like just talk about the "organic" but in general ( in our experience ) when it comes to pay for premium price ( I agree, organic should be standard not a privilege / premium , but we are not there yet ) , they go for cheaper option. In fact, in many cases I've heard some people saying that non organic tastes better than organic ones.
In fact I've heard other way around , when wholesale buyer ( tea shop ) was buying an organic tea from reputable vendor and parcel was checked for pest in destination country ( by local customs ) and it failed the test terribly ( kinda big numbers ) . The name of the buyer was issued on official page ( that his parcel has been caught and not passed to the country ) of the institution proceeding those tests and of course some competitor didn't wait and re-posted it on FB as well. So kinda damaged the name of the buyer.
Yet the selling vendor after the apology still counts as being reputable and keep claiming doing personally some pest tests.
I'm not trying to throw stones on anybody , but I'm trying to explain ( and was said here already ) , that EU tests ( which are more strict than US ) are quite expensive. So one needs to thing what is real and what is just a marketing. When I go to farmer and buy lets say 10-20kg of some green tea, then pay like 800$ for the test which might show "red" , what Im going to do? I've lost money for tea and test.
If goes green, I'm lucky and can add those extra 800$ on top of the price. But if you find genuine organic green tea which can pass those tests, that tea is already very expensive, so adding another 800$ to this batch would cause that you will sell , if lucky , few kg 1st year, and 1kg second , then rest will give for free to your friends.
We have tried to sell organic EU certified green tea, nobody interested because when 50g of Biluochun costs less than 3$ , the organic one in same grade was almost 6$. Many people like just talk about the "organic" but in general ( in our experience ) when it comes to pay for premium price ( I agree, organic should be standard not a privilege / premium , but we are not there yet ) , they go for cheaper option. In fact, in many cases I've heard some people saying that non organic tastes better than organic ones.
@Janice Thank you very much.
@wave_code You do have some interesting points. In fact, there is an organic farm (although not certified) in upstate, NY (about an hour or more from where I live), and lucky for me the farm comes down to our area (about 20 minutes from where I live) every Sunday to one of the farmer's markets, so I have an opportunity to buy their food. I spoke to the owner one day and he told me how it expensive it is to become certified. They are a small, but highly popular, farm. I know this farmer takes great pride in his product, and I trust him. So do I care that he is not "certified" organic? No, I do not. He is the only organic local farm in my area (at least that I am aware of). I buy most of my food at my local supermarket, which is known for selling a lot of organic and local farm foods. You really touch on some important ideas about organic farming. Many people feel better (myself included, be it wrong or right), when food I purchase says "organic" on it. Somehow I get the warm and fuzzies inside. I'm not saying it's right, and I'm not saying that a local farm selling non-organic cucumbers may be using smaller amounts of pesticides than an organic farmer (which, in my opinion, if they are organic, they should not be using any at all). I will admit that I am not that educated in the area of organic farming. I just hopped on this bandwagon years ago and I haven't got off since. But I should probably do some more research into organic farming and the how valuable the organic label on a food really is.
@aet Very true. Mostly, we just judge a product by its taste. I don't know anyone who has ever "tested" their organic fruits or vegetables or tea. If the label says organic, most of us feel a little better about our purchase, even if we are shelling out more money for it. Interesting story you recounted about the wholesaler who bought tea from a "reputable" vendor, and it failed the test to check for pests. And you are right, most people--even those who have the money to pay for it--do not want to pay a premium for organic, especially when they are feeding a whole family. For me, it's just the way I've eaten for years, and the prices on some of the organic fruits and vegetables I buy have come down in price since the supermarket I do most of my shopping at (Whole Foods) was purchased by Amazon. Regarding tea, it will get very expensive if I continue drinking only loose-leaf green tea shipped from other countries. I'd rather include a mix of some organic products, and some conventional. How good is the organic I am buying? Am I paying a premium for tea that is no "cleaner" than non-organic from a good vendor? Probably in some cases. There's just no way to know unless I spent a lot of money on testing the tea I purchase, and I'm not going to do that.
@wave_code You do have some interesting points. In fact, there is an organic farm (although not certified) in upstate, NY (about an hour or more from where I live), and lucky for me the farm comes down to our area (about 20 minutes from where I live) every Sunday to one of the farmer's markets, so I have an opportunity to buy their food. I spoke to the owner one day and he told me how it expensive it is to become certified. They are a small, but highly popular, farm. I know this farmer takes great pride in his product, and I trust him. So do I care that he is not "certified" organic? No, I do not. He is the only organic local farm in my area (at least that I am aware of). I buy most of my food at my local supermarket, which is known for selling a lot of organic and local farm foods. You really touch on some important ideas about organic farming. Many people feel better (myself included, be it wrong or right), when food I purchase says "organic" on it. Somehow I get the warm and fuzzies inside. I'm not saying it's right, and I'm not saying that a local farm selling non-organic cucumbers may be using smaller amounts of pesticides than an organic farmer (which, in my opinion, if they are organic, they should not be using any at all). I will admit that I am not that educated in the area of organic farming. I just hopped on this bandwagon years ago and I haven't got off since. But I should probably do some more research into organic farming and the how valuable the organic label on a food really is.
@aet Very true. Mostly, we just judge a product by its taste. I don't know anyone who has ever "tested" their organic fruits or vegetables or tea. If the label says organic, most of us feel a little better about our purchase, even if we are shelling out more money for it. Interesting story you recounted about the wholesaler who bought tea from a "reputable" vendor, and it failed the test to check for pests. And you are right, most people--even those who have the money to pay for it--do not want to pay a premium for organic, especially when they are feeding a whole family. For me, it's just the way I've eaten for years, and the prices on some of the organic fruits and vegetables I buy have come down in price since the supermarket I do most of my shopping at (Whole Foods) was purchased by Amazon. Regarding tea, it will get very expensive if I continue drinking only loose-leaf green tea shipped from other countries. I'd rather include a mix of some organic products, and some conventional. How good is the organic I am buying? Am I paying a premium for tea that is no "cleaner" than non-organic from a good vendor? Probably in some cases. There's just no way to know unless I spent a lot of money on testing the tea I purchase, and I'm not going to do that.
To address various points:
1. Yes, certain pesticides are allowed under Organic certification regimes. Each country has its own regulations as to what is permitted or not. In most cases those regulations are very restrictive.
2. Assuming you live in a country that has an established Organic scheme (Japan and the US do, for instance), there should be no need for a buyer to ever test produce themselves, that's handled by the certifying agency, which is generally a 3rd party, not the government agency defining the standard (e.g. not USDA or JAS). One doesn't trust the farmer, one trusts the certification process as defined by the government body. If you don't trust your own government, well, can't blame you, but there is no higher standard to appeal to.
3. What all this says for countries with weak Organic standards, or non-government "standards" is unclear. They can mean just about anything, and claiming a product is certified by a 3rd party agency probably doesn't mean much, as those agencies certify to whatever standard is set forth for them.
1. Yes, certain pesticides are allowed under Organic certification regimes. Each country has its own regulations as to what is permitted or not. In most cases those regulations are very restrictive.
2. Assuming you live in a country that has an established Organic scheme (Japan and the US do, for instance), there should be no need for a buyer to ever test produce themselves, that's handled by the certifying agency, which is generally a 3rd party, not the government agency defining the standard (e.g. not USDA or JAS). One doesn't trust the farmer, one trusts the certification process as defined by the government body. If you don't trust your own government, well, can't blame you, but there is no higher standard to appeal to.
3. What all this says for countries with weak Organic standards, or non-government "standards" is unclear. They can mean just about anything, and claiming a product is certified by a 3rd party agency probably doesn't mean much, as those agencies certify to whatever standard is set forth for them.