Energy and chi of greener teas vs roasted teas

[d.manuk]

I was hoping people more informed than me could speak about the differences in qi they have found in greener vs roasted teas, I think that would be a good place to start the thread. I'm also interested in hearing about instances where a certain tea that is on the greener side has a qi similar to one you would find more in a roasted tea.

I don't drink roasted teas often, so I am here to learn more about the subject and to also find out if there are certain times when energetically it would make sense to reach for a roasted tea over a greener one ...

For example I've heard that older people should drink roasted teas and younger should drink greener teas. Does this mean that greener teas are cooling and roasted teas are warmer? However, I've had a Balhyocha that was only slightly withered (so not roasted, and also much less than usual) and it really warmed the body.

[.m.]

My (uninformed) impression is that the TCM warm/cold character of tea has more to do with the effect on the gut then on the body. Generally, oxidized and fermented teas are considered "warmer" then those that are not. And aged teas are generally "gentler" then young teas. Likewise, both greens and roasted teas are often rested to mellow out. Also, incidentally, roasted oolongs are usually a bit more oxidized then green type oolongs. Where it puts roasted green like hojicha i'm not sure (when fresh it can be pretty harsh, seem to retain the greenness, while having a strong element of fire on top of it). In the end there is so much variation in each category of tea in terms of processing, cultivar, growing conditions, etc, that it doesn't make too much sense to make generalizations. And there's also dampness/dryness character....

[mbanu]

If you are in NYC, you can just drop by the Pacific College of Oriental Medicine; I'm sure they will be delighted that someone takes an interest in their work.

[Ethan Kurland]

Shine Magical, I think you give us something to ponder. I also think there is not an objective answer coming.

Even if one was to be scientific about finding answer (that is drinking the same amount of each tea one is testing & doing one's best for controls), our bodies & moods are always changing.

Wonderful cha qi is not a common experience for me, but the main enabler has been that the tea session was very long & that during it, I drank much more tea than I usually do at a session. Yet, such a session is no guarantee for me to be blissful, warm, & comfortable to the max.... I've had that experience w/ dayuling, fushoushan, Pu-erh, & aged oolong which I favor for extraordinarily long sessions because it keeps tasting good to me & never gives me the slightest problem.

Sustained energy is something that I have never gotten from tea (nor anything else). I am not sure what you mean by "energy".

[Bok]

I am not sure what you mean by "energy".

Energy is probably a subjective description of a variety of bio-chemical reactions of the body to a given tea, which might be further influenced by our own expectations to a tea/drinking environment, so not always necessarily connected to the tea itself.

So, in my experience those reactions, might include:

Increased heart palpitations, dizziness, nausea, sleeplessness, vivid dreams, breaking out in sweat, calming sensation, increased alertness etc. Calling it energy is probably a more esoteric way to describe it.

Qi is a problematic term, which I do not want to go to much into, too complicated and too much baggage... more likely to confuse than to clarify things

[Bok]

greener vs roasted teas

As has been pointed out above, teas do not oblige by falling into simple categories as green tea-is as such and roasted-tea is as such...

I have had my most vivid and strongest reactions to a medium roasted Dongding and the craziest sleepless night ever with an aged Dancong from the 1970s - go figure, even aged teas are not a safe bet for a mellow evening...

There is more truth to the cold/warm characters of teas, at least in my experience. You can even feel it by what kind of teas we crave for in which circumstances. Personally I am not super sensitive to that part, but if I pay close attention, I can attest to it, although I mostly ignore it in favour of favourite teas.

In Taiwan, older people and the ones with health issues, do drink aged or more oxidised and roasted teas, as they are milder on the stomach. Greener Oolong and most importantly cheaper oolong is avoided! I have one acquaintance that refuses to drink teas of any kind below a certain price level due to the potential effects on his health. My go to tea shop only recently confided to me, that he only really drinks the roasted and aged teas for health reasons. The green stuff he sells, as the market demands it.

Old people also do drink those teas, simply because that is how they made tea when they were young and old habits die hard

[Baisao]

I am a freak of nature as I am acutely aware of cha qi with every tea I drink. I have various explanations for this personal phenomenon but the one that makes the most sense to me is that I meditate and do not consume intoxicating substances. It’s been over 16 years since I even had alcohol or a nicotine. These are personal decisions that resulted from meditation and I do not judge others who enjoy intoxication in moderation.

Moving on...

I think that a tea’s qi is largely a function of how the chemistry of a tea reacts to an individuals constitution. For example, some people find matcha stimulating but I find it almost narcotic at times.

With this in mind, these are gross examples of how teas affect me:

* Greens and roasted oolongs are generally relaxing (yin).

* Gaoshan cha is very energetic (yang) with a qi that reminds me of a young horse.

* Young sheng can be intolerably yang to me, having an unpleasant stimulating feeling that continues long after the caffeine has been metabolized

Lastly, some people mistake water intoxication for cha qi. You find this when people discuss feeling cha zui after a extended tea binge. It’s likely just water intoxication.

[carogust]

I don't seem to align with the traditional TCM view of greener = cooling, oxidized/aged/roasted = warming.
In some sense, the opposite. I've found that green tea has the least possibility to be harsh on the body/lead to a nasty state. Actually never had green tea impact my body negatively...

I'd say the quality of processing is fairly critical. I think well processed tea is something like well prepared food. Some foods improperly cooked (for me the worst is onions) is very harsh on the stomach, and can make me feel dizzy and unwell. Raw pu-erh is pretty much badly cooked onion (on purpose, to let the tea age) so no wonder it is similarly harsh on the stomach. On the other hand, green tea is properly processed thus poses no problems.
The teas that I find best/most enjoyable are those that pose no harshness to the body. They feel "silky smooth" from start to finish. As I said, I'd imagine it has most to do with quality of processing.
I've not had bad experiences that I'd attribute to pesticides or anything like that, so I won't comment on that.

There is a definite difference in the energy I get from different types of tea, but it just doesn't align with TCM views. I've found that assamica vs sinensis has a fairly large impact on qi (as well as taste).
For example, I find that assamica reds, greens and pu-erh give me a fairly similar qi. Tends to be slightly "heavier" (not stronger, don't know how to describe it) than sinensis. It might be that the ones I've tried have all been grown in yunnan as well. Terroir does probably impact qi as well.

Edit:
It is sometimes very scary how strong tea can be as a drink... I've had very intense qi on a few occasions, particularly with the teas that I find to be exceptional. Those occasions don't happen consistently and not to say that they were unpleasant.
It is also reassuring that the teas energy tends to fade fairly quickly...

[Baisao]

Let me add that I don’t believe in supernatural things and I do not practice TCM so when I say cha qi in regards to tea, I am referring to the sensations various teas produce beyond mere caffeine. Variously, people have tried to describe teas as l-theanine, caffeine, catechins, micotoxins, etc. with very little understanding of how these (and other!) chemicals interact with our bodies. With a dearth of scientific information to guide us in this conversation, I fall back on the classic and traditional way of describing these effects: cha qi.

As mentioned above, some sensations are vigorous/alert and others relaxing/soporific. I have encountered other sensations that I would describe as mildly psychedelic. I have had these psychedelic sensations with a 60s sheng, shancha (wild Camellia formosensis), and a mainland oolong that I suspect was altered.

The 60s sheng was wonderful yet peculiar and by far the strongest cha qi I have felt. It stole my words for nearly a minute after merely a single sip. It felt profoundly ancient, deeply prehistoric and made my body have a vibrating sensation that lasted days. This vibrating sensation reminded me of an immense bronze bell that had been struck. This vibrating sensation made me feel “aligned” (for lack of a better word) for nearly a week. I remember telling my guest I was “walking with the dinosaurs”. I can only attribute this to micotoxins created by the flora that was living in the tea.

My experience with shancha is that it is was a tug of war between being relaxing and energizing. More specifically, it altered my vision so that lights and reflections were enhanced. I described it to a friend as making the room more sparkly. I was the guest on this occasion and the server did not sense any of this but I should note that the server was regularly taking MDMA in the weeks before this tea session. What I sensed was an Nth what the server was experiencing with recreational drugs, but what I felt was strong for someone who doesn’t even drink coffee. The shancha, being a wild plant that grows in a hostile environment, must create chemical defenses to fight insects and pathogens. As such, it’s unsurprising that shancha might have more chemical effects than plantation grown tea that’s been preselected for pathogen resistance.

The psychedelic mainland oolong may have been altered in some way. It was by far the strangest tea of all. After a few cups I felt an invisible beam of white light coming out of my forehead! I’m embarrassed to even mention this. It was like a floodlight that lights up the sky but was blasting out of my forehead with incredible force. This hallucination was pleasant but so unnatural that I stopped the session and poured it out. I was so surprised I don't think I noted any other sensations. Something like this just has to have been doped but I can’t imagine what with because the sensation came upon me rapidly and was specific to that one hallucination.

Ok, so I know that eyes will roll and that what I have written seems fantastical and imaginative. You can think I am a kook. You can chuck the above if you like as I don’t need people to believe me. However, I am a grounded individual who doesn’t believe in conspiracies, woo, or other nonsense. What I have described above are my experiences with 3 teas (out of literally hundreds) that pushed the boundaries of what I normally consider cha qi.

[d.manuk]

What is shancha?

[Baisao]

What is shancha?

Edit: I wrote what it is so maybe you can read instead of scan.

[Victoria]

What is shancha?

Edit: I wrote what it is so maybe you can read instead of scan.

Also, first time I see shancha refered to as wild Camellia Formosensis.
Interesting share @Baisao. Lots to mull over, especially how some plants natural defenses become psychotropic. Nicotine is like that also. Although, Bug Bitten doesn’t seem to do that.

The most cha qi I have felt is from wild old growth teas, especially certain pu’erh. Waves of heat, a flush or a wave through certain parts of the body. Sometime in the chest, up into the head. At our last tasting here we were having ‘03 Purple Dayi FT 7542-301, I found myself laughing and sticking my tongue out, it was hilarious.

[Baisao]

Also, first time I see sancha refered to as wild Camellia Formosensis.
Interesting share Baisao. Lots to mull over, especially how some plants natural defenses become psychotropic. Nicotine is like that also. Although, Bug Bitten doesn’t seem to do that.

The most cha qi I have felt is from wild old growth teas, especially certain pu’erh. Waves of heat, a flush or a wave through certain parts of the body. Sometime in the chest, up into the head. At our last tasting here we were having ‘03 Purple Dayi FT 7542-301, I found myself laughing and sticking my tongue out, it was hilarious.

@Victoria, I’ve never heard of shancha as anything other than Camellia formosensis though “mountain tea” is generic enough it could refer to any mountain-grown tea I suppose.

The waves you describe are spot on as sometimes you can feel it moving through you. Some aged teas have a feeling that moves up from my tanden to my neck or forehead. Other times cha qi moves back and forth from my chest to extremities in pulsating waves, most frequently with matcha. When this happens lay down on my back and let it do its work.

[Victoria]

Victoria, I’ve never heard of shancha as anything other than Camellia formosensis though “mountain tea” is generic enough it could refer to any mountain-grown tea I suppose.

Lol, I meant I never heard the term Shancha at all before. Good to learn something new

[nasalfrog]

...Variously, people have tried to describe teas as l-theanine, caffeine, catechins, micotoxins, etc. with very little understanding of how these (and other!) chemicals interact with our bodies...

I found this video intriguing as there is an interview with a researcher about a feasibility study of using GABA tea and gyokuro to improve cognitive and coordination function in children with autism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2Zw15bS3mQ

The hypothesis being that those with autism tend to have a leaky blood-brain barrier that would allow GABA from tea to make it to the brain. The results of the study seem to warrant further research.

I have not been diagnosed with autism, but I have been medically diagnosed by a gastroenterologist with Celiac Disease, so my blood brain barrier may be leakier than normal as well.

Greens like kabusecha, matcha, gyokuro, and some senchas have a very large relaxing impact on me. Physiologically my heart rate goes down by 10+ bpm (when compared to baseline both at rest and active), and mentally I become very chill. I am generally an anxious person, so the difference is quite apparent. Colors and sounds can become more vivid as well, so, when I get the rare chance of time to myself, I have a session outside. There is a limit on returns, however, as if I drink too much the caffeine becomes too much, and I can get into sensory overload/panic territory. Also senchas high in caffeine and low on umami/theanine can be a bad time for me, especially if I go out in public.

I have tried a few roasted/aged Japanese teas like kamairicha, hojicha, bancha, and black tea. These require about half the leaf I normally use with the steamed greens. They seem to have a neutral effect on me, and just supply my daily dose of caffeine to avert a headache. I will say I have had a couple of kamairichas and a bancha that were more like oolongs and found them to have a relaxing effect

@Baisao your experiences are intriguing. Thank you for sharing.

I am also a long-term meditator who also does not drink alcohol or smoke or anything. Tea is enough for me.

I don't know much about TCM, but this video and my experience seems relevant to this discussion, so I thought I would share.

Recently I purchased some GABA/gabaron sencha I will be trying out shortly to see if it has any effect on me. I had only know about Taiwanese GABA tea, but, according to Wikipedia anyway, the process for producing GABA tea was created in Japan.