On confirming clay effects and pot preferences

User avatar
Baisao
Posts: 1396
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:17 pm
Location: ATX

Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:52 pm

Baiyun wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:05 pm
At least for my brewing, there's nothing good to say about a slow pot, and no downside to a fast pour. If you are sourcing antiques and find the right shape, clay, condition, and it so happens to pour slowly, then that's easily forgiven, and even a non-issue for several teas. But on a modern pot...give me fast.
Most of my Yixing empty in greater than 10 seconds. Why pass on a 15s teapot that makes great tea?
User avatar
Baiyun
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2022 1:12 am
Location: Australia

Mon Jan 30, 2023 8:44 pm

Baisao wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:52 pm
Baiyun wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:05 pm
At least for my brewing, there's nothing good to say about a slow pot, and no downside to a fast pour. If you are sourcing antiques and find the right shape, clay, condition, and it so happens to pour slowly, then that's easily forgiven, and even a non-issue for several teas. But on a modern pot...give me fast.
Most of my Yixing empty in greater than 10 seconds. Why pass on a 15s teapot that makes great tea?
It's of course more of an "all else being equal" argument to begin with.
Heicha and shou can suddenly dump the extraction. Other teas are less likely to do this.
Could you please expand on this, I am not sure I understand.
User avatar
Bok
Vendor
Posts: 5779
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:55 am
Location: Taiwan

Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:07 pm

Baiyun wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:05 pm
At least for my brewing, there's nothing good to say about a slow pot, and no downside to a fast pour. If you are sourcing antiques and find the right shape, clay, condition, and it so happens to pour slowly, then that's easily forgiven, and even a non-issue for several teas. But on a modern pot...give me fast.
I only use old pots and none of them pours slow, not even close. Probably more the vintage ones or lower quality antiques which can be slow.

I'd add that Dancong and Yancha can benefit from a fast pouring pot (while up to 10 sec is totally acceptable). Yancha, even good one can be harsh on the body if brewed too strong, even more so if it happens in a setting of multiple teas being had in a matter of hours.
User avatar
Baisao
Posts: 1396
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:17 pm
Location: ATX

Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:08 pm

Baiyun wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 8:44 pm
Heicha and shou can suddenly dump the extraction. Other teas are less likely to do this.
Could you please expand on this, I am not sure I understand.
Tea extractions are not linear in time. As the leaf absorbs water, extraction increases. Imagine a scenario where we only steep for 10s each extraction—

1st 10s extraction: tea is somewhat weak and watery because the tea has absorbed water yet released little. This is sometimes discarded as a wash.

2nd 10s extraction: tea is more flavorful and has good body because the water that was absorbed during the first steeping has allowed the components of the tea to be extracted.

3rd 10s extraction: the tea is much too strong in flavor and body. It is over-extracted because the leaf has been full saturated with hot water and 10s was too long.

4th 10s extraction: tea is more like the 2nd extraction because a large portion of the compounds were released in the 3rd extraction.

Now, it has been my experience that heicha and shou can take longer to be saturated with water and release their compounds. And when they do, they do it all at once. Using grossly round numbers, the 2nd steep may be 20s but the 3rd may be less than 10s. They tend to dump their extractions compared to other teas.
User avatar
Baiyun
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2022 1:12 am
Location: Australia

Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:49 pm

Baisao wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:08 pm
Baiyun wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 8:44 pm
Heicha and shou can suddenly dump the extraction. Other teas are less likely to do this.
Could you please expand on this, I am not sure I understand.
Now, it has been my experience that heicha and shou can take longer to be saturated with water and release their compounds. And when they do, they do it all at once. Using grossly round numbers, the 2nd steep may be 20s but the 3rd may be less than 10s. They tend to dump their extractions compared to other teas.
Thank you, I see what you mean and am familiar with the dump on subsequent infusions for certain teas, but not ripe because for teas with accelerated fermentation I tend to use a lower than usual leaf to water ratio, double rinse, then let the wet leaves rest a bit with the lid on to soak through, and then proceed with rather long infusions that only get longer. The first real infusion I get out is probably already at dump level at that stage, which is ok due to the lower leaf to water ratio. That worked best for my tastes over time but I have done this for a while without variation so I am now inspired to mix it up a bit and will brew it closer to non-ripe teas next time the ripe mood strikes me.
Andrew S
Posts: 704
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2021 8:53 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:26 pm

Apologies for the lengthy response... As to slow pours, I think that what Baisao has said regarding both high-quality tea and the way in which a tea releases its flavours are quite important.

I've got two old pots with slow pours. One is somewhat large (130mL), the other mid-sized in the context of most of my pots (70mL).

The larger one gets both puer that was stored a bit too humidly, and puer that's a bit too young or dry, because the clay is very 'interactive' and can tame both excessive humidity and excessive youth. For this one, I use a slightly lower ratio of leaves to volume compared to a green label guava pot which has a very quick pour (say, 7g, instead of 8g, for 130mL).

The smaller pot gets used with medium-roast and medium-to-high-oxidation styles of yancha (ie, not too dark, not too light). Unlike with the bigger one, for this one I use a normal ratio of leaves for me, which is high for most people (say, 8g for 70mL).

With both pots, I find that there are two options: either brew very quickly, or else brew a little bit slowly.

In the case of the smaller pot, that's because I find that many good yanchas can withstand a somewhat stronger brew, so long as they're not too light in roast or oxidation. However, that's a matter of personal taste.

More importantly, for both pots, it's also because I find that different flavours and textures are released from tea in a non-linear way. So, an overly young or dry-stored puer might have pleasant bright flavours without excessive bitterness or astringency if it's brewed very quickly. If it's brewed for a bit longer, I find that that bitterness or astringency can often overpower the flavour and render it quite unpleasant. But I also find that if you brew it a little bit longer yet, the bitterness or astringency can actually balance out once stronger flavours and a richer mouthfeel begin to emerge.

I find the same thing with yancha; a longer brew can be better-balanced than a shorter one. It was very useful for me to go through a big bag of some okay, not great, yancha pretty much every single day for a while, learning how it could be quite great either brewed very quickly or brewed in a stronger style (but not in between...). I used to do almost 'flash' brews of yancha, but don't do that anymore, mostly because of my experience with that big bag of tea.

Those are just my thoughts about why I quite like using my slow-pouring pots, but it really depends upon the tea, people's preferences, etc.

Another thing is that many people say that you can imitate a slow pour with a quick-pouring pot, but not the other way around; however, I'm not sure how often people actually do that...

Andrew
User avatar
Baisao
Posts: 1396
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:17 pm
Location: ATX

Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:40 pm

Andrew S wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:26 pm
It was very useful for me to go through a big bag of some okay, not great, yancha pretty much every single day for a while, learning how it could be quite great either brewed very quickly or brewed in a stronger style (but not in between...).
This is the best way to learn to make tea in my opinion. Get a good tea and focus on brewing just that tea, trying different things to tune the tea to your preference. Spend a year on that tea if you can. Reduce this characteristic, increase that characteristic using temp, time, various techniques. Follow your intuition. Put another way: Just sit with the tea and listen to it.

Andrew S wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:26 pm
Another thing is that many people say that you can imitate a slow pour with a quick-pouring pot, but not the other way around; however, I'm not sure how often people actually do that...
I’ll sometimes make a slow pot pour faster by pushing my index finger forward on the knob to break the water seal of the lid. The rush of air will cause the tea to rush right out. Some say it even improves flavor too do this fast pots but I cannot confirm that myself.
User avatar
Baiyun
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2022 1:12 am
Location: Australia

Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:01 am

@Andrew S it is always good to read what approach and conclusions you tea wizards go through!

I only recently started to focus on single teas for extended periods of time, rather than rotating through some staples and a lot of samples, and it has been very interesting. I am now certain I have too readily dismissed many teas in the past by just not getting them right because I tended to brew them in similar ways as previous teas of the same type or origin, just because once upon a time that worked for some tea I liked. Those 25g samples are hardly enough to really get to it.

@Baisao I have never timed it precisely but none of my pots seem to pour appreciably faster by doing the lid lift trick, perhaps there are 'spout restricted' and 'air hole restricted' types of pots?

I am done testing and allocating, outcome is, from left (1) to right (4):

1: Whites of all ages
2: Anything ripe, very smokey, or otherwise funky
3: All oolongs
4: Only sheng
4p.jpg
4p.jpg (140.86 KiB) Viewed 1800 times
This may be sacrilege but I finish each session by letting boiling water sit in these pots for a minute or so, anti-seasoning style, and have never discerned any carry over between teas. So I am quite happy to mix aged whites with younger whites in pot (1), and light gaoshan with darker roasted oolongs in (3), etc. and pot (2) protects the others from the weirder stuff. These clays are different, but the main deciders were body shape and wall thickness.
User avatar
Baisao
Posts: 1396
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:17 pm
Location: ATX

Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:53 am

Baiyun wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:01 am


Baisao I have never timed it precisely but none of my pots seem to pour appreciably faster by doing the lid lift trick, perhaps there are 'spout restricted' and 'air hole restricted' types of pots?
I suppose that’s possible if your teapots have restrictive ball filters. My Chinese teapots don’t have them.

If there is a flow problem even when you lift the lid on a teapot that doesn’t have a filter then the issue may be with how you’re forming your gall. If the leaves do not form a gall then it becomes more likely that leaves will plug the entrance to the spout.
User avatar
Baiyun
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2022 1:12 am
Location: Australia

Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:09 am

Baisao wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:53 am
Baiyun wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:01 am


Baisao I have never timed it precisely but none of my pots seem to pour appreciably faster by doing the lid lift trick, perhaps there are 'spout restricted' and 'air hole restricted' types of pots?
I suppose that’s possible if your teapots have restrictive ball filters. My Chinese teapots don’t have them.

If there is a flow problem even when you lift the lid on a teapot that doesn’t have a filter then the issue may be with how you’re forming your gall. If the leaves do not form a gall then it becomes more likely that leaves will plug the entrance to the spout.
I don't actually have a problem with any of them, just saying that they don't speed up further when lifting the lid.

Two 7 hole ball filters, one 10 hole filter, one 14 hole filter, so it may well be that this speed up trick is only for no filter pots.

But since 3 of 4 are in the 7-9 second range and the filters rarely ever get anything stuck in them, I am happy with filters.

I also do not employ any special gall technique, where relevant, it naturally forms on the spout side, and I always pour water in on the handle side, unless I am trying to break it. I just tilt to pour the pot gradually according to water pressure for a smooth flow (not tipping it all the way immediately like I see some people do, which would just jolt and chug the flow on my pots).

I am sure lots of fun to be had with pots that require a bit of technique, unfortunately mine are pretty fool proof.
User avatar
Bok
Vendor
Posts: 5779
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:55 am
Location: Taiwan

Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:59 pm

Baiyun wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:01 am
This may be sacrilege but I finish each session by letting boiling water sit in these pots for a minute or so, anti-seasoning style, and have never discerned any carry over between teas. So I am quite happy to mix aged whites with younger whites in pot (1), and light gaoshan with darker roasted oolongs in (3), etc. and pot (2) protects the others from the weirder stuff. These clays are different, but the main deciders were body shape and wall thickness.
No sacrilege at all, quite the opposite good common pot hygiene! And if it is just to facilitate a quick drying which is much more important > mold&friends.

They'll get patina nonetheless. No carry-over is more due to the clay you are using. This kind of Zhuni-Hongni-ish clays do not actually absorb much more than a superficial layer, if any... I just rinse mine with boiling water and after zillions of uses, did not notice any carry-over either.
Andrew S
Posts: 704
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2021 8:53 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Tue Jan 31, 2023 10:39 pm

As to lid-lifting, I think it depends on the mechanics of the lid and how you brew. It seems that it mostly works if the air hole gets clogged with water, which I would guess is more common in older pots and with 'wet brewing' styles of making tea (but sometimes it gets clogged anyway). it also isn't much of an issue with loose lids, like my 80s guava pot, which has a very quick pour, narrow air hole, but pretty loose lid.

Sometimes, lifting the lid a touch can add a slightly quicker pour even if the hole isn't clogged. Again, I would guess that that's probably more of an issue with older pots (and perhaps whether the hole gets clogged with water during your brewing movement; perhaps more common with flat shapes than tall shapes, but again, just a guess). There was a discussion around here a while ago about drilling into the air hole to widen it; I would not do this, and would instead lift the lid and tolerate some occasional dribbles and such.

As to alleged sacrilege, I always rinse pots thoroughly with hot water. I don't think that 'seasoning' a pot is necessary or desirable.

For example: here are two pots, one used and the other unused / reset, which involved no intentional attempts to season the used one. It just happened from ordinary usage by brewing tea in it: viewtopic.php?p=45076#p45076

Here's a rather different example: a pot that I've used for a long time with old puer and such. The inside is... not in mint condition. But again, there were no attempts to try to season it; it just happened over a decade or so of old, dark tea (though some would clean it before this happened to it): viewtopic.php?p=40518#p40518

Andrew
User avatar
wave_code
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:10 pm
Location: Germany

Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:48 am

interesting you bring up the extraction and pour issues with hei cha @Baisao. generally they are considered such forgiving teas, and while generally this is still true over time I did notice more and more this problem, especially once I started using higher tds water for them which extracts more from the leaves and seemingly at a faster rate. it is very easy to make a drinkable pot of liu bao or shu, and even if over-extracted it will often still taste fine - maybe even really good and really strong, but you can totally wreck a teas progression really fast this way too. I think it goes un-noticed quite often because its not like a young or tricky sheng where you can easily wind up with something very unpleasant and have almost all the following cups go that way too, but if we're talking about making a tea its best these fermented teas do still require attention.

I've wondered how much of this has to do with the teas behavior due to the processing style, but as was also brought up here generally higher grade teas can take more abuse. I spent far more on my liu bao than I do on sheng so it can be hard to remember that these traditionally really aren't high end teas- they have become more valuable and sought after due to their age and turn in to something I think that is fantastic, but quite often these were/are rough and low grade teas that were at times worth less than producing cheap green tea. not only that but they weren't meant for gong fu in the style most of us here practice either but often more in a three and done/boil situation. also the profile of common flavors in these teas lend themself to getting really muddy and masked without care. again, its forgiving in that it will still be drinkable, maybe even good, but you can't pick anything out - its just a big wash.

to try and get around these problems I've started brewing my hei cha by pouring water in to the pot to warm it, out to the cup, adding the leaves, using the now cooled water from the cup for the rinse, dumping that, then going for a relatively short first brew. doing this I've found usually the second brew needs the same shortened time and is still considerably darker, then increasing from there.
User avatar
Balthazar
Posts: 705
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:04 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:34 pm

wave_code wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:48 am
I've wondered how much of this has to do with the teas behavior due to the processing style, but as was also brought up here generally higher grade teas can take more abuse.
At the risk of quibbling I'd say that depends on what you mean by "grade". For grading systems that focus on bud/leaf ratio and/or distinguish by leaf size, like the "factory code" puer one or the Anhua heicha grading system, generally speaking lower grade teas are harder to overbrew (assuming all other factors are equal). I know you probably mean "high grade" in the normal sense, i.e. "the good stuff" all things considered (which a purely size-based grading system will not be of much help to determine what is). I too agree with this, and having grandpa-brewed and cow-brewed a lot of stuff over the last year has really driven that point home.

I also generally speaking consider heicha very forgiving. It is such a broad category however that I sometimes wonder how useful it is to speak about anything in general with regard to it. My experience has been that finer grades are more susceptible to the kind of sudden extraction bombs mentioned by @Baisao, as are heavily fermented and young teas. Compression can be another factor, the tighter the compression the harder it is to avoid chunks that can surprise you at steep x when they all decide to unfurl at once.
Post Reply