Ageing Zhuni Clay

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mudandleaves
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Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:48 am

A block of zhuni from Huang Long Mountain 黄龙山 sits ageing at the studio of Chen Chunhong and Lin Hanpeng. Curious to see whether or not the clay had aged long enough, Lin Hanpeng took a small amount to shape into a cup and fire this week:
https://www.mudandleaves.com/teatime-bl ... zhuni-clay
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Baisao
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Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:37 am

That must have been some pretty expensive mud! Totally worth it if real.
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Brent D
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Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:26 pm

Which brings up a point...
Everyone always says that a true Zhuni must be from before factory era pots. Looks like a real zhuni could be made, brand new tomorrow. How much clay is out there? Being that there is no way to "prove" that clay is zhuni, how can we tell if a modern pot is made from old stock clay?
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Bok
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Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:03 pm

@Brent D there seem to be some people that can tell by looking at it. But that capability does not help the average person to find one, unless you can ask for advice.

Other than that you can only trust whoever is stating it that is true... but as a pot like that will be at least 500-1000$, trust seems not like the best way forward.

There is this guy who is screening claypots for heavy metals and other components, I am sure it would be possible to create profiles for what older Zhuni contains or not.

Really antique old Zhuni seems to almost always have been a blend as far as my understanding goes.
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Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:26 pm

Brent D wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:26 pm
Which brings up a point...
Everyone always says that a true Zhuni must be from before factory era pots.
Strangely enough, I don't hear this from serious collectors in China, many of whom own beautiful examples of antique (Late Qing Dynasty) and modern (last 10 years) teapots made of Zhuni.

Zhuni is still being mined. There just isn't much of it in comparison to some of the other varieties. new zhuni arrives in the market as a constant trickle, compared to the large amount of zini that is available.

The zhuni Lin is ageing is from Huang Long Shan, which has a different character from zhuni mined in other places (like zhuni from Xiaomeiyao for example). It's harder to find some in the market compared to other sources.

His zhuni wasn't mined and processed that long ago, so it still has some ageing to do before he can use it.

Zhuni doesn't have to come from Huang Long Shan to be "true zhuni" though.
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Bok
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Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:14 pm

mudandleaves wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:26 pm
Brent D wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:26 pm
Which brings up a point...
Everyone always says that a true Zhuni must be from before factory era pots.
Strangely enough, I don't hear this from serious collectors in China, many of whom own beautiful examples of antique (Late Qing Dynasty) and modern (last 10 years) teapots made of Zhuni.
True, there seem to be two camps, one swears on Laozhuni. Others say that modern authentic Zhuni is usually purer, old one mostly a blend.

On the topic of if there is still Zhuni and how much I find it still very hard to believe that there are teapots supposedly made of pure Zhuni for a lot less than 500USD (Western retail). The market would and does pay 500 and more for Zhuni and that was a few years back. Why would anyone offer authentic for a lot less, if the market would pay more? The normal clays are already heavily blended and filled with additives since the 90ies (which the guy mentioned above proved with his testing method for a large sample of factory 1 pots, see another thread of mine), which makes low price availability for an even rarer clay in pure, unblended form not very likely.
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Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:16 am

Bok wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:14 pm
mudandleaves wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:26 pm
Brent D wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:26 pm
Which brings up a point...
Everyone always says that a true Zhuni must be from before factory era pots.
Strangely enough, I don't hear this from serious collectors in China, many of whom own beautiful examples of antique (Late Qing Dynasty) and modern (last 10 years) teapots made of Zhuni.
True, there seem to be two camps, one swears on Laozhuni. Others say that modern authentic Zhuni is usually purer, old one mostly a blend.

On the topic of if there is still Zhuni and how much I find it still very hard to believe that there are teapots supposedly made of pure Zhuni for a lot less than 500USD (Western retail). The market would and does pay 500 and more for Zhuni and that was a few years back. Why would anyone offer authentic for a lot less, if the market would pay more? The normal clays are already heavily blended and filled with additives since the 90ies (which the guy mentioned above proved with his testing method for a large sample of factory 1 pots, see another thread of mine), which makes low price availability for an even rarer clay in pure, unblended form not very likely.
"The normal clays are already heavily blended and filled with additives since the 90ies"

None of our clay is blended with additives or chemicals. Many other studios also use pure clay. We are not discussing F1 teapots, so why would it matter if they were adding chemicals to Factory 1 clay 30 or more years ago? The market in China has changed a lot since then. Zisha ore is mined every year in Yixing. Again, please take a look at the Chinese market for Yixing today if you want an accurate idea about clay and price.

As for why our teapots aren't over $500:

1) Because we purchase teapots from our partners at the wholesale rate and we sell their teapots at the same retail rate found in China. Many vendors selling Yixing Teapots to the western market are buying retail and reselling them with a markup. I have linked to examples of the market rate for zhuni in China on the teachat thread. We could put up our teapots at double or triple the price we do, but we don't like the idea of cheating people. We are in this for the long haul and believe that being honest and providing the same access to the market that Chinese customers enjoy is the best way forward for us.

2) If you're paying $500 for a half-handmade zhuni teapot, and there is nothing else that is special about the teapot or the potter, then you are being cheated (see 1).

One of the reasons we don't deal in F1 or any 1970s-1990s teapots is because it is too difficult (maybe impossible) to know definitely. Production in those years was an undocumented mess. Many Chinese collectors of Yixing Teapots are weary of dealing with F1 pots for this reason. The water is deep. The cult of F1 is strong on Western forums though.
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Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:31 am

mudandleaves wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:16 am
None of our clay is blended with additives or chemicals. Many other studios also use pure clay. We are not discussing F1 teapots, so why would it matter if they were adding chemicals to Factory 1 clay 30 or more years ago? The market in China has changed a lot since then. Zisha ore is mined every year in Yixing. Again, please take a look at the Chinese market for Yixing today if you want an accurate idea about clay and price.
I am not saying your sources do add something. What I am saying is that what that guy tested before the 90s had no additives, afterwards it had in most cases. No reason that that would have stopped when things went private, looking at a lot of modern Yixing, a lot of the clay certainly does not have very natural colours, compared to early factory and previous. Demand is huge and there is big money in it, there will be people taking advantage. Again, not saying your products do.

mudandleaves wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:16 am
As for why our teapots aren't over $500:
2) If you're paying $500 for a half-handmade zhuni teapot, and there is nothing else that is special about the teapot or the potter, then you are being cheated (see 1).
I am referencing what I am hearing from Asian collectors/friends, not vendors with own financial interests in the matter. I never heard anyone guessing a pure Zhuni could be had cheaper than that, maybe ten years ago. What they told me is that most Zhuni nowadays is finely grinded, sieved and blended Hongni - technically Zhuni is just another kind of Hongni - to achieve a Zhuni-like result. Anyways, only the potter himself will know for sure...

To relate to tea, it is a bit like Yancha these days, huge demand by a very affluent class, little premium supply, high prices.
mudandleaves wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:16 am
The cult of F1 is strong on Western forums though.
You should see the forums in Taiwan and Asia... I can assure the real hype is there! Western collectors mostly merely dabble in the stuff not many consider worth collecting at all, 80s and 90s.

I was just talking to a Yixing authority in Taiwan the other day, he said most of the Chinese itself do not yet know how to identify the old stuff, mostly because not much of it is left after all the cultural and other revolutions, the knowledge lost. So now they are coming to Taiwan and other places to learn and see the real stuff first hand. Once they know, the market will become inaffordable for most...

In Taiwan the 60-70s stuff is really hard to get and expensive as too many know how look for it! Ironically, it is sometimes easier and cheaper to find late Qing and ROC teapots, as less people know how to spot them.
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Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:51 am

I am referencing what I am hearing from Asian collectors/friends, not vendors with own financial interests in the matter. I never heard anyone guessing a pure Zhuni could be had cheaper than that, maybe ten years ago. What they told me is that most Zhuni nowadays is finely grinded, sieved and blended Hongni - technically Zhuni is just another kind of Hongni - to achieve a Zhuni-like result. Anyways, only the potter himself will know for sure...
Zhuni (whether mined today or 100 years ago) is technically a subcategory of hongni like you say. However, Zhuni is very different from the common hongni, both the original ore and the finished and fired clay. I have seen the two different ores and the finished products. They're not the same at all. I often see zhuni teapots mislabeled as "modern zhuni/hongni" when modern zhuni only means zhuni mined recently instead of decades ago, and the more common hongni is a different clay with different characteristics. I find the more common hongni is closer to zini in how it rounds the flavour of tea.

There are and have been shady factories selling fake clay that is a mystery blend (this has been the case since at least the 1990s). If you have experience handling the real thing, you can tell the difference. The safest is to only deal with reputable studios. This is easy to do with a little research.
I was just talking to a Yixing authority in Taiwan the other day, he said most of the Chinese itself do not yet know how to identify the old stuff, mostly because not much of it is left after all the cultural and other revolutions, the knowledge lost. So now they are coming to Taiwan and other places to learn and see the real stuff first hand. Once they know, the market will become inaffordable for most...
This may be the case for private collectors who are seeking antique teapots, but it is not true as far as the zisha industry. Many of the potters who worked in Factory 1 are still alive and have taught the people working in the industry today. Where did the Factory 1 Potters receive their knowledge? The cultural revolution broke up the old industry and reformed production according to the command economy, but it didn't wipe out the knowledge these people had before they moved into the factory.

It is true that a lot of the credit for popularizing Yixing Pottery inside and outside of China in the 1980s and 1990s belongs to Taiwanese collectors. The Chinese market has matured a great deal since the 1990s and early 2000s though. These attitudes towards the Mainland are outdated. There has been a movement in the industry, particularly in the last 10 years, towards using more traditional blends of zisha as well as using original ore clay. Many younger potters in China care about authenticity, just like young people outside of China.

It is also worth mentioning that zhuni isn't the only sought after zisha, nor is it even the rarest in China (far from being as rare as tianqingni for example). Some collectors prefer some kinds of zini, others zhuni, etc.. One day, market demand may make zhuni completely unaffordable, but this isn't the case right now.
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Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:07 pm

mudandleaves wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:51 am
The cultural revolution broke up the old industry and reformed production according to the command economy, but it didn't wipe out the knowledge these people had before they moved into the factory.
Of course, I was talking about the collectors end. That is also why the fakes are getting so good!

mudandleaves wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:51 am
It is true that a lot of the credit for popularizing Yixing Pottery inside and outside of China in the 1980s and 1990s belongs to Taiwanese collectors. The Chinese market has matured a great deal since the 1990s and early 2000s though. These attitudes towards the Mainland are outdated. There has been a movement in the industry, particularly in the last 10 years, towards using more traditional blends of zisha as well as using original ore clay. Many younger potters in China care about authenticity, just like young people outside of China.
That is good to hear that the next generation is making steps in the right direction. One can kind of guess by some of their web presentations how styles and attitudes are changing.

As far as attitudes, my comments stems from quite recent events. Taiwanese tea-teachers have been going to China for years now (and making good money) in teaching their cousins the way of tea and related things. The person I was talking to, has just recently been asked to organize regular seminars on how to look at teapots and to identify what is real and what is not. And at least for antiques/vintage I am very thankful that not yet a lot know how to, otherwise my collection would stay smaller than it is by now :mrgreen:

Anyways no hard feelings, Yixing and all that is and has been for some time a minefield and abyss of exceptions, deceptions – and above all great fun and tea making tool!
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Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:40 am

Some great thoughts here, and my stance remains unchanged.
Nothing will make you more cynical and un-trusting, than being a westerner and trying to collect yixing :lol:
Back to focusing on the leaf.
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Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:57 am

@Brent D yes it is difficult from far away and with so little available information in English.

One solution - move over here, once you can molest and fondle the real thing, it gets a lot easier, not to forget to have good and trustworthy friends! :mrgreen:

You’re right to focus on the leaf, yet I think some teas are equally difficult to obtain as collect-worthy teaware.
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Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:28 am

Bok wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:57 am
You’re right to focus on the leaf, yet I think some teas are equally difficult to obtain as collect-worthy teaware.
This!
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Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:03 pm

Bok wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:07 pm
mudandleaves wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:51 am
The cultural revolution broke up the old industry and reformed production according to the command economy, but it didn't wipe out the knowledge these people had before they moved into the factory.
Of course, I was talking about the collectors end. That is also why the fakes are getting so good!

mudandleaves wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:51 am
It is true that a lot of the credit for popularizing Yixing Pottery inside and outside of China in the 1980s and 1990s belongs to Taiwanese collectors. The Chinese market has matured a great deal since the 1990s and early 2000s though. These attitudes towards the Mainland are outdated. There has been a movement in the industry, particularly in the last 10 years, towards using more traditional blends of zisha as well as using original ore clay. Many younger potters in China care about authenticity, just like young people outside of China.
That is good to hear that the next generation is making steps in the right direction. One can kind of guess by some of their web presentations how styles and attitudes are changing.

As far as attitudes, my comments stems from quite recent events. Taiwanese tea-teachers have been going to China for years now (and making good money) in teaching their cousins the way of tea and related things. The person I was talking to, has just recently been asked to organize regular seminars on how to look at teapots and to identify what is real and what is not. And at least for antiques/vintage I am very thankful that not yet a lot know how to, otherwise my collection would stay smaller than it is by now :mrgreen:

Anyways no hard feelings, Yixing and all that is and has been for some time a minefield and abyss of exceptions, deceptions – and above all great fun and tea making tool!
None taken :D I always enjoy a good discussion. Yes, the cross-straits exchange in tea culture is interesting. Taiwanese collectors still make up a good size of the visitors to Yixing. Visiting the source is the best way to know about the clay. I think a lot of the myths could be dispelled if people could go to Yixing and see for themselves how it works.

Mainland collectors have been buying up the nice older stuff (pre-1949) for a while now. A collector acquaintance of mine has such a collection. She owns quite a few small zhuni teapots spanning antique Qing-era exports to those made in the last 10 years. The antiques were acquired from South East Asia (Malaysia if I remember correctly).
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Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:13 pm

Bok wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:57 am
Brent D yes it is difficult from far away and with so little available information in English.

One solution - move over here, once you can molest and fondle the real thing, it gets a lot easier, not to forget to have good and trustworthy friends! :mrgreen:

You’re right to focus on the leaf, yet I think some teas are equally difficult to obtain as collect-worthy teaware.


There are litterly 1000’s of photos of authentic pots and reliable sources of information online that didn’t exist 10-15yrs ago. It obviously can’t compare to living in Asia but it’s definitely no longer the yixing dark ages it once was.

Imho this is probably the best time to be a collector in the west.
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