Is that all there is? Challenging the orthodox view

Post Reply
User avatar
Tillerman
Vendor
Posts: 347
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:58 pm
Location: Napa, CA
Contact:

Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:41 pm

This month the Ultracrepidarian challenges the orthodox view that all true tea is produced from camellia sinensis: https://tillermantea.net/2020/01/camellia/
User avatar
mudandleaves
Vendor
Posts: 184
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:50 pm
Location: Guangzhou, China/Ottawa
Contact:

Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:20 am

An interesting read. Thanks for posting!
.m.
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:26 pm
Location: Brno / Montreal

Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:41 am

Thanks for writing this. As usually very informative.
It is a confusing topic with that inspires a lot of loosely related questions.
- What tea is made from Irrawadiensis? From what i read somewhere, Taliensis is more closely related to Sinensis and more suitable for tea production, sort of in between Sinensis and Irrawadiensis.
- What is purple tea/yesheng? Is it Taliensis, or is it a mutation of either species? There seems to be a typical taste to yesheng.
- The widely used term "wild puerh" is rather confusing: it can refer either to yesheng or non-sinensis plants, or simply to freely grown trees. Sometimes, one hears about "sweet" and "bitter" variety of wild puerh: are the forms of Sinensis?
- What is the distinction between a tree and a bush? Is it matter of cultivar, or a matter of growth (e.g. if the main stem is cut the tree is forced to branch out)?
.m.
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:26 pm
Location: Brno / Montreal

Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:29 pm

In some older literature,
https://www.ias.ac.in/article/fulltext/ ... /0178-0187
Sinensis and Assamica are treated as different species, and a further subspecies Assamica Lasiocalyx is identified.
User avatar
Tillerman
Vendor
Posts: 347
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:58 pm
Location: Napa, CA
Contact:

Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:45 pm

.m., you are correct - they had once been viewed as separate species.

If it can be shown that c taliensis, c. irrawadiensis and c. formosensis are in fact not separate species but varieties of c. sinensis, my argument fails. So far, all of the studies that I have seen that use DNA markers have concluded that these are separate species. It is not sufficient just to toggle the taxonomy; rather there must be evidence brought forward.
.m.
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:26 pm
Location: Brno / Montreal

Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:32 pm

Tillerman wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:45 pm
If it can be shown that c taliensis, c. irrawadiensis and c. formosensis are in fact not separate species but varieties of c. sinensis, my argument fails. So far, all of the studies that I have seen that use DNA markers have concluded that these are separate species. It is not sufficient just to toggle the taxonomy; rather there must be evidence brought forward.
Wouldn't them being the same species simply mean that they could cross-fertilize and that their offsprings could further reproduce? For example, can the TRES18 hybrid produce seeds capable of germinating? Or is there more to it?
User avatar
pedant
Admin
Posts: 851
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:35 am
Location: Chicago
Contact:

Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:52 pm

nice article, thank you.

haha, i love that book (For All the Tea in China). i think @Frisbeehead recommended it to me some years ago.
that's some serious industrial espionage.
https://tillermantea.net/2020/01/camellia/ wrote:Tea is not made exclusively from leaves of the camellia siniensis species.
yes, we agree:

Image
User avatar
Tillerman
Vendor
Posts: 347
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:58 pm
Location: Napa, CA
Contact:

Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:04 pm

Many species, if closely related, can cross fertilize and produce viable offspring. For example, the wine grape Baco noir is an inter-specific hybrid of.vitis vinifera X vitis riparia. Similarly, homo sapiens and neandethal interbred and some of the offspring are still in politics to this day.

It also matters which species is the male and which is the female parent.
.m.
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:26 pm
Location: Brno / Montreal

Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:24 pm

Tillerman wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:04 pm
Many species, if closely related, can cross fertilize and produce viable offspring. For example, the wine grape Baco noir is an inter-specific hybrid of.vitis vinifera X vitis riparia. Similarly, homo sapiens and neandethal interbred and some of the offspring are still in politics to this day.

It also matters which species is the male and which is the female parent.
I had to do some googling on the neanderthals, the (in)conclusion of which is that the question of whether they were the same species as sapiens or not is complicated, but that the genetic difference was significant enough to justify a separate category. Perhaps this is similar to the tea word, what matters is not the classification itself, but the fact of the genetic diversity.
Ethan Kurland
Vendor
Posts: 465
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:01 am
Location: Boston
Contact:

Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:23 pm

Tillerman wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:04 pm
. Similarly, homo sapiens and neandethal interbred and some of the offspring are still in politics to this day.
Thanks for that. :lol:
User avatar
bentz98125
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:08 pm
Location: Seattle

Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:56 am

Ethan Kurland wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:23 pm
Tillerman wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:04 pm
. Similarly, homo sapiens and neandethal interbred and some of the offspring are still in politics to this day.
Thanks for that. :lol:
Bravo! I swear, for life's truely perplexing questions, teaforum.org should be everyone's resource of first resort. How else to cut through self-immolating mental contortions trying to understand why today's politics are eager and determined to repeat every barbaric example history has to offer, when all you needed to know was "It's the genes stupid!"? True enlightenment if ever there was, and funny too. Next thread: "Why are jokes the most profound knowledge humans can seem to manage?"
Ethan Kurland
Vendor
Posts: 465
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:01 am
Location: Boston
Contact:

Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:25 am

bentz98125 wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:56 am
Next thread: "Why are jokes the most profound knowledge humans can seem to manage?"
Wow! Are you upset, bentz?

I don't think people take jokes as knowledge. Sometimes a joke is just a joke. I don't think all politicians are essentially less than homo sapiens, nor even all barbaric, or other ..... I doubt that anyone here does

The pleasure of tea helps us cope. The hobby of tea can go from a joy & distraction that is useful to an obsession. A well-timed, unexpected joke keeps us from getting too serious about matching water & pots to specific teas or measuring temperature & time exactly etc.

Though people are no longer living in caves, are capable of so much that is good, etc.; yet, the world is in trouble & not enough people are working seriously to get us out trouble; alas, is a joke bad or is it necessary once in a while?

All the best
thommes
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:11 pm
Location: Central Ohio

Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:37 am

Ethan Kurland wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:25 am
Though people are no longer living in caves, are capable of so much that is good, etc.; yet, the world is in trouble & not enough people are working seriously to get us out trouble; alas, is a joke bad or is it necessary once in a while?
Maybe we could have a tea party at your place? ;)
Ethan Kurland
Vendor
Posts: 465
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:01 am
Location: Boston
Contact:

Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:40 pm

thommes wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:37 am
Ethan Kurland wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:25 am
Though people are no longer living in caves, are capable of so much that is good, etc.; yet, the world is in trouble & not enough people are working seriously to get us out trouble; alas, is a joke bad or is it necessary once in a while?
Maybe we could have a tea party at your place? ;)
Anytime a forum member is in Boston, I'd be happy to be contacted. I have a lot of free time & plenty of tea. Cheers
Post Reply