English-language Yixing books

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mbanu
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Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:50 pm

Chadrinkincat wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:22 pm
1800’s? https://www.woolleyandwallis.co.uk/depa ... w-lot/250/

This claim is easily debunked by looking through the official F1 catalogs from 70-80’s or by having the most basic level of knowledge about seals.

Many of their antique yixing are very clearly Chazhou clay. If you can’t identify two entirely different clays + construction methods.....


No reason to even consider the possibility of that Gu Jingzhou pot being authentic at this point.
This is once again where I appreciate that they have provenance. If we ask, "Who are Jos and Carla Ott?" the answer is that they are antique dealers from the Netherlands (https://www.ottfinearts.nl/en/). Notably, on their website they say, "Ott is one of the few remaining generalists in the Netherlands.". Looking through their wares, there are a few teapots, but no Yixing. So it would be reasonable to be a bit more skeptical in this case without a more detailed provenance.
Last edited by mbanu on Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mbanu
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Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:57 pm

LeoFox wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:57 am
The other possibility they are fakes from the 80s and 90s
So the question then would be, "Were they making these kind of counterfeits in the 80s and 90s?" I think the answer might be no for the 80s, and probably not for the 90s, because the main thing that caused the surge in counterfeits was the wave of bankruptcies of state-owned potteries in the mid-90s when the government directed banks to no longer issue loans to state enterprises. Before that there were only a few counterfeiters, mostly working in their off-hours producing copies of antiquities. Maris Boyd Gillette wrote about this from the perspective of the Jingdezhen ceramics industry in her book China's Porcelain Capital.

She gives as an example Wu Yan and her husband who were part-time counterfeiters in the time before the wave of bankruptcies and transitioned to full-time afterwards:
In the early 1990s, Wu Yan and her husband worked for private entrepreneurs at night and on Sundays. As artists trained in traditional handicrafts, they had skills that were in demand. Wu Yan's husband was the one who suggested that they open their own porcelain workshop. He had been painting replicas of historic blue and white wares, and saw how lucrative the market was. Wu Yan might not have agreed if it hadn't been for the Build the Nation, East Wind, For the People, and Saggar factories closing. She and her husband had relatives in government who had a sense of what might lie ahead for the state and collective sector. Early in 1996, the couple bought a potter's wheel and two kilns, and Wu Yan quit her job. The People's Porcelain Factory went bankrupt shortly afterwards.

[. . .]

Wu Yan and her husband had replicas of Yuan and Ming dynasty blue and white porcelain ready for sale. She rented a storefront near the train station. Wu Yan recalled:

"At the time, you could really make a bundle from historic reproductions. Not too many people were making replicas, and producing successful pieces was difficult. Most other private entrepreneurs were still firing in coal kilns, and many of the pots that came out were unsellable. But we had propane kilns, and our success rate was much higher. We coul sell a single piece for several thousand yuan. In 1998 and 1999, we made a lot of money selling replicas to buyers from Fujian Province. Of course, those brokers really made the big money. They resold our replicas as genuine antiques, and made tens of thousands of yuan on a single piece, or even more."
If the situation was similar in Yixing, then up until the late 90s the highest demand was for counterfeit antiques, rather than Mao pots.

However, not everyone had the skills to make counterfeit antiques. She gives as an example here Wang Guo'an and his wife:
Wang Guo'an and his wife worked at the same state porcelain factory and were laid off simultaneously. Wang was 43 when he lost his job. Immediately after he was laid off, Wang applied for jobs at private porcelain factories and was told that he was too old. Wang's wife was a few years younger than him. She initially tried to find work operating a cash register for a store, and was told that no one would hire a woman older than 35 for that job. After months of fruitless searching, the Wangs decided that they already had some skills as ceramists, and were too old to retrain. Wang Guo'an knew the basic procedure for slip-casting. Mrs. Wang could apply transfers and decals. They decided to open their own workshop, producing low-quality slip-cast jars and urns simply decorated with underglaze blue transfers for bulk sales to retailers. The couple worked long hours, and did not make a lot of money, but told me they were getting by.
So maybe a Yixing version of Wang Guo'an was making counterfeit Mao pots. Was there a market for such things in the mid-to-late 90s? The potters in Jingdezhen that were interviewed seemed a bit embittered toward the government, but people will make what sells, I suppose. If so, then it comes down to whether Peter Wain was buying Mao pots in Hong Kong back then.
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LeoFox
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Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:18 pm

We know that during cultural revolution, the seals dont have identities

We know now those key artists were actually being punished during this time.

Praising mao in the prc was never considered a bad thing post 80s. He never became a Khrushchev like character.

Those seals claim they are made by a top artist. Similar pots can be obtained cheaply on the internet

viewtopic.php?p=35111#p35111

This does not eliminate possibility that the pot is some fake (that is not made by that artist and not made during CR). Could be a simple tourist pot claiming top artist made it during CR and not expecting a big price tag. Things were cheap in the 80s and 90s in the prc. I remember.
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Bok
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Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:31 pm

Once again, the serious collectors would not bother with provenance and just look at the visible facts. By merely looking at the craftsmanship it’s very easy to determine in a split second that there is a 0% chance that Gu made this pot. Or any of the better artists for that matter.

And as was said above, it’s known that during that period pots weren’t signed by name. That was a life threatening thing to do. A cursory glance over eBay and other places reveals this pot as what it is: tourist trash, possibly made with unsavoury material.
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Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:35 pm

mbanu wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:50 pm
Chadrinkincat wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:22 pm
1800’s? https://www.woolleyandwallis.co.uk/depa ... w-lot/250/

This claim is easily debunked by looking through the official F1 catalogs from 70-80’s or by having the most basic level of knowledge about seals.

Many of their antique yixing are very clearly Chazhou clay. If you can’t identify two entirely different clays + construction methods.....


No reason to even consider the possibility of that Gu Jingzhou pot being authentic at this point.
This is once again where I appreciate that they have provenance. If we ask, "Who are Jos and Carla Ott?" the answer is that they are antique dealers from the Netherlands (https://www.ottfinearts.nl/en/). Notably, on their website they say, "Ott is one of the few remaining generalists in the Netherlands.". Looking through their wares, there are a few teapots, but no Yixing. So it would be reasonable to be a bit more skeptical in this case without a more detailed provenance.
If we ask, “did this seal exist in the 1800’s” the answer is no. So why does it matter at this point who Jos and Carla Ott are? If they had yixing on their site would that change the facts of this case? No.
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mbanu
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Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:44 pm

I guess for the purpose of learning Yixing even a catalog with provenance is no good if the auction-house appraiser is not a specialist, as too much work must be done by the reader to determine if what they are seeing is what they are reading. Looking at the team section of Woolley and Wallis, it looks like they do not have a Chinese ceramics specialist. It looks like something like that would pass by Jeremy Morgan, their Chinese Art generalist (a former Asian Art worker at Christie's) and maybe Freya Yuan-Richards, their calligraphy specialist, perhaps with some feedback from Clare Durham, their European Ceramics specialist.

Might a larger auction house be a better choice? I see that Bonhams catalogs can be found online. For example, here is their catalog for the 2013 auction of Jimmy Sha' s collection: https://images2.bonhams.com/original?sr ... 19-0-2.pdf

For something like this, it would probably have gone to Dessa Goddard or Asaph Hyman for assessment. Dessa Goddard was a doctoral candidate in Chinese History at UC Berkeley before joining Bonhams, but I don't think she was a Yixing specialist. It looks like Asaph Hyman's specialty is the Kangxi period, as that was what his MA in Fine Art focused on.

Do you think Bonhams catalogs would be an easier catalog for people trying to learn Yixing, or do they have the same issues as Woolley and Wallis in regards to not having a Yixing specialist on staff?
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Chadrinkincat
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Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:18 pm

@mbanu
Provenance is pointless.

Bonham’s is probably more reliable than WW but I I wouldn’t blindly trust their selection either. They have numerous examples of Chaozhou pots labeled as antique yixing. This is a pretty huge error for anyone that sells antique pots.
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mbanu
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Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:25 pm

Chadrinkincat wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:18 pm
Bonham’s is probably more reliable than WW but I I wouldn’t blindly trust their selection either. They have numerous examples of Chaozhou pots labeled as antique yixing. This is a pretty huge error for anyone that sells antique pots.
That's too bad. Do you think that auction catalogs before the 1995 counterfeiting boom would be more helpful, or would it be best for English-language learners to stick to museum exhibition catalogs and published books?

That's very interesting that these are all coming out of Chaozhou -- in the book on the Jingdezhen industry, the belief was that the Chaozhou factories were some of the ones that handled privatization the best, which is why the title of "China's Porcelain Capital" was taken from Jingdezhen and given to Chaozhou in 2004. On the other hand, it seems like their main boom industry was sinks and toilets, so maybe not all Chaozhou potters fared equally. :D
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Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:35 pm

mbanu wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:25 pm
Chadrinkincat wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:18 pm
Bonham’s is probably more reliable than WW but I I wouldn’t blindly trust their selection either. They have numerous examples of Chaozhou pots labeled as antique yixing. This is a pretty huge error for anyone that sells antique pots.
That's too bad. Do you think that auction catalogs before the 1995 counterfeiting boom would be more helpful, or would it be best for English-language learners to stick to museum exhibition catalogs and published books?

That's very interesting that these are all coming out of Chaozhou -- in the book on the Jingdezhen industry, the belief was that the Chaozhou factories were some of the ones that handled privatization the best, which is why the title of "China's Porcelain Capital" was taken from Jingdezhen and given to Chaozhou in 2004. On the other hand, it seems like their main boom industry was sinks and toilets, so maybe not all Chaozhou potters fared equally. :D
Not sure what you mean about CZ pots. I’m basically saying these auction houses can’t tell the difference between slab built yixing and wheel or slip cast CZ pots. Not fake yixing made by CZ potters


One clear example of a CZ pot labeled as yixing.

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/24266/lot/6227/
19th c. Yixing w/ ZGYX seal. Very clearly an F1 pot from 1980’s. https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/24087/lot/313/

Catalogs before 1995? Every era copied pots from previous era. The only era where I think this isn’t the case is during F1 since all production was state run.
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Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:49 pm

mbanu wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:25 pm
That's too bad. Do you think that auction catalogs before the 1995 counterfeiting boom would be more helpful, or would it be best for English-language learners to stick to museum exhibition catalogs and published books?
I am not aware of even one trustworthy publication in English to learn about these things. None, there is nothing. The only reliable source used to be Dr Lus fb group(limited to F1 though).

And Chinese language probably only earlier publications are recommended. I know that a few Wuhsing books have some items that raise doubts among local experts, but then with save-face and all these issues are rarely addressed.

It all boils down to connections and knowledge, for local live auctions for example, collectors look at who is the organiser and appraiser, from that they determine how likely the items on display are to be authentic, in addition to handle the items beforehand in real life. And no, no one gives a rat’s back about provenance. Seems Westerners are more easily blinded by fancy background stories. I’m missing out on one of these just this weekend as I’m out of town : /

Or maybe better that way...
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mbanu
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Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:57 pm

Bok wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:49 pm
mbanu wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:25 pm
That's too bad. Do you think that auction catalogs before the 1995 counterfeiting boom would be more helpful, or would it be best for English-language learners to stick to museum exhibition catalogs and published books?
I am not aware of even one trustworthy publication in English to learn about these things. None, there is nothing. The only reliable source used to be Dr Lus fb group(limited to F1 though).

And Chinese language probably only earlier publications are recommended. I know that a few Wuhsing books have some items that raise doubts among local experts, but then with save-face and all these issues are rarely addressed.
That's a shame. Without any publication to point someone towards, I imagine that anyone who seems to know anything about Yixing will find themselves constantly pestered. :D
Bok wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:49 pm
And no, no one gives a rat’s back about provenance. Seems Westerners are more easily blinded by fancy background stories.
I think it can still be a useful tool if it can be gathered. With a complete provenance of an item from the maker to today, there can be no question what it is, because there is nothing else it could be. The challenge is how tedious these are to collect, especially now that there are bad faith actors. The New York Times had an article on this that mentioned that some places now create counterfeit auction catalogs that have inserted their items.
“Basically, everything is controlled by middlemen,” said Wu Shu, a writer who has posed as an art dealer as part of his research and published three books on the subject, including, “Who Is Swindling China?”

“They generally divide the goods into three categories: the best-quality things go to the auction market; midlevel works go to the antiquity markets; and lower-level things go to flea markets,” he said.

Experts say some Chinese dealers and consignors slip works into auction by doctoring old sales catalogs to invent a provenance, and — if all else fails — paying an auction house specialist to include a suspect item. (https://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/28/arts ... -boom.html)
So instead of just doing provenance on the item, a person has to do provenance on the provenance too. :lol: This can be fun in its own right, though. I thought the little side-path into the life of Peter Wain was interesting to me, at least.
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Bok
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Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:20 pm

@mbanu as far as Yixing is concerned I am not aware of even a single item with full provenance, except maybe one or two imperial court items in museums. Or the shipwreck stuff, but these are not usable for tea.
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Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:20 am

@mbanu

What's wrong with Chinese books? The point is the images anyway. The filler text could be distracting from focusing on what matters. And you could get the books through TB, with an agent.
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Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:15 am

Youzi wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:20 am
mbanu

What's wrong with Chinese books? The point is the images anyway. The filler text could be distracting from focusing on what matters. And you could get the books through TB, with an agent.
Do you have some recommendations? I'll be making another TB order quite soon, with two books on puer thrown into the mix. Wouldn't mind adding a couple of recommended books on yixing (antique, factory era or modern - anything goes as long as it comes recommended).
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mbanu
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Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:44 am

Youzi wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:20 am
mbanu

What's wrong with Chinese books? The point is the images anyway. The filler text could be distracting from focusing on what matters. And you could get the books through TB, with an agent.
Maybe as an example, here is a video filmed in 2004 where the artist Zhao Jianghua makes a Yixing tool called a "bizi": https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/bitstr ... sAllowed=y

There are plenty of images, but without any context it is not even clear why such a thing would need to be made by hand. :D

In this case, an English explanation in a separate paper written a few years later adds the context -- the tools are made by hand because of how the pots are marketed and sold.
Many of the most successful artisans insist that clients visit them personally for any purchase, rather than rely on an intermediary. This is a strategy to control the circulation of forgeries of their work, readily available on the market. Artisans let clients know that the only guarantee to get an authentic work is to buy direct. The useful by-product of that policy is that artisans have the occasion to present and talk about their work directly to their clients.

Artisans constantly remind visitors that the techniques employed in their craft are unique. The visits of clients to private workshops are rare moments in which the demonstration of this uniqueness can take place. The artisan must show the client the traditional techniques and tools used as a form of guarantee that the pots are indeed ‘traditional’. The fact that these pots are traditional, or hand-made, it is not something that can easily be recognised from the surface of the objects – tradition must therefore be, in a sense, ‘revealed’.

All these things that are made accessible to viewing during the personal visits of clients, including tools and techniques, are meant to establish a contrast: on the one hand, the ‘exclusive’ craft that is carried out in the privacy of homes and private workshops, on the other hand, the cheaper pottery produced in open workshops on the streets of Dingshu and in surrounding villages.

The items produced in either context might be similar enough to dupe the uninitiated, but revealing the processes that give rise to these ‘exclusive’ works marks them in contrast to the other, ‘common’ craft that is so readily available to anyone’s gaze. Traditionalists further claim that many of the more successful artisans, including some who have the title of Master, are in fact resorting to the use of moulds.

This ‘revelation’ is all important: seeing the complexity of the traditional methods, the client might start appreciating the claims of the artisan, that it can take years to master even the basic techniques of the craft, and days if not weeks to craft just one pot.

When a price is revealed – in particular when this price is many times higher than that of the more commonly available pots – the artisan must make sure that the client knows about all the elements that make this work particularly valuable, needs to have made clear the ‘inherent’ value of the work, a value that becomes apparent only once the techniques involved in the making of the object are revealed. (https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/d ... 1&type=pdf)
It is the same thing with books -- without the added context it becomes hard to understand conceptually what is happening. Knowing why a teapot from a certain time looks a certain way aids in the understanding.
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