The Porcelain Thread

Hmm
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Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:21 pm

I think the first photo is the canton plate, right? That plate foot shows that it was probably using unfired blanks from previous periods that were still in stock from Jingdezhen, which is common. It has a slanted edge right?

Both look like mid 19th century type oieces.

Can't say anything about the "Song" piece, since I don't have much knowledge about earlier Song ceramics. But I going to assume it's not from Song, and relatively new...
DailyTX wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:26 pm
Mark-S wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:40 am
Victoria

Thanks for this information :) I did not know cantonchinavirtualmuseum.com. It's very helpful

Bok

I added more photos.
Image
Image
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Mark-S
The second photo’s foot looks good. It even has a name inscribed on the outside, which led me to think it maybe common ware from Qing.

The 3rd photo looks like one of those plates from Essenceoftea. You can browse through their site to compare.

The first photo...looks younger and sloppier in term of the foot. I am no expert in antique haha but if I am a buyer, I would pay early-mid 20th century price.
Mark-S
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Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:51 pm

DailyTX wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:26 pm
The second photo’s foot looks good. It even has a name inscribed on the outside, which led me to think it maybe common ware from Qing.

The 3rd photo looks like one of those plates from Essenceoftea. You can browse through their site to compare.

The first photo...looks younger and sloppier in term of the foot. I am no expert in antique haha but if I am a buyer, I would pay early-mid 20th century price.
There are four ownership marks on the plate. Normally, I don't like damaged things but that's okay for me.

Now, that the website discussion.chinese-antique-porcelain.com is available again I'll ask there tomorrow and let you know what they think.

@Hmm

Yes, the first photo is the canton plate. Thanks for the background information about it. :) I am not sure if I understand what you mean with "slanted edge", so I added another photo with a different angle to this post.

Regarding the last plate... EoT had similar plates for sale marked as "Song Dynasty". I think this plate is exactly like the one from Ming Dynasty I own. It's genuine but pretty common and therefore not expensive. I was not searching for anything special. I just wanted to have a few plates I find beautiful, and now I got them. 8-)

https://essenceoftea.com/collections/te ... boat-iii-1
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Bok
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Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:46 pm

Nice plates. Always good to have some tea boat variety at hand.
Mark-S
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Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:31 pm

Bok wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:46 pm
Nice plates. Always good to have some tea boat variety at hand.
Thanks, I like vintage/antique tea boats more than modern ones. When it comes to cups however, I prefer modern porcelain. I tried clay cups but I don't like the feel of clay in my mouth, and I don't like the firing flaws / rough edges on antique porcelain (there's an example below). I am currently using modern cups that were designed for a G20 summit in 2016 in HangZhou (China). They are feminin, yes, but I like them. :lol:

https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/culture/2 ... 737367.htm
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Bok
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Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:42 pm

Mark-S wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:31 pm

Thanks, I like vintage/antique tea boats more than modern ones. When it comes to cups however, I prefer modern porcelain. I tried clay cups but I don't like the feel of clay in my mouth, and I don't like the firing flaws / rough edges on antique porcelain (there's an example below). I am currently using modern cups that were designed for a G20 summit in 2016 in HangZhou (China). They are feminin, yes, but I like them. :lol:

Image
Also careful, the glaze on the antique cup you posted is overglaze and will almost certainly leach lead! Not safe to drink from, especially if it has decorations inside.
Mark-S
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Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:53 pm

Bok wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:42 pm
Also careful, the glaze on the antique cup you posted is overglaze and will almost certainly leach lead! Not safe to drink from, especially if it has decorations inside.
Yep, that's another "flaw" of this cup. It does not have decorations on the inside but you have to be careful not to touch the decorations with your mouth. I am also not sure if it's safe to touch the decorations when holding the cup. Some people say it's not a problem, but I don't know. So I better stay with modern cups. :)
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Bok
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Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:56 pm

Mark-S wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:53 pm
Yep, that's another "flaw" of this cup. It does not have decorations on the inside but you have to be careful not to touch the decorations with your mouth. I am also not sure if it's safe to touch the decorations when holding the cup. Some people say it's not a problem, but I don't know. So I better stay with modern cups. :)
Touching is not an issue.
DailyTX
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Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:42 pm

Hmm wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:21 pm
I think the first photo is the canton plate, right? That plate foot shows that it was probably using unfired blanks from previous periods that were still in stock from Jingdezhen, which is common. It has a slanted edge right?

Both look like mid 19th century type oieces.

Can't say anything about the "Song" piece, since I don't have much knowledge about earlier Song ceramics. But I going to assume it's not from Song, and relatively new...
DailyTX wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:26 pm
Mark-S wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:40 am
Victoria

Thanks for this information :) I did not know cantonchinavirtualmuseum.com. It's very helpful

Bok

I added more photos.
Image
Image
Image
Mark-S
The second photo’s foot looks good. It even has a name inscribed on the outside, which led me to think it maybe common ware from Qing.

The 3rd photo looks like one of those plates from Essenceoftea. You can browse through their site to compare.

The first photo...looks younger and sloppier in term of the foot. I am no expert in antique haha but if I am a buyer, I would pay early-mid 20th century price.

@Hmm
You may be right on the date. I read some info online that if the foot rim has too many kiln particles, it’s one indicator of a later date. As a buyer, I’ll probably go with the plate that has a mark and cleaner foot. Maybe when @Mark-S post the photos on the porcelain forum, we will have more feedback
Hmm
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Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:18 pm

Mark-S wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:51 pm

There are four ownership marks on the plate. Normally, I don't like damaged things but that's okay for me.

Now, that the website discussion.chinese-antique-porcelain.com is available again I'll ask there tomorrow and let you know what they think.

Hmm

Yes, the first photo is the canton plate. Thanks for the background information about it. :) I am not sure if I understand what you mean with "slanted edge", so I added another photo with a different angle to this post.

Regarding the last plate... EoT had similar plates for sale marked as "Song Dynasty". I think this plate is exactly like the one from Ming Dynasty I own. It's genuine but pretty common and therefore not expensive. I was not searching for anything special. I just wanted to have a few plates I find beautiful, and now I got them. 8-)

https://essenceoftea.com/collections/te ... boat-iii-1
Image
As you can see the foot is vertical on the inside, but slanted at a 45 degree angle on the outside. This was supposedly how plates foots were made during around the Kangxi time. Evidently there were a lot of blanks produced, and I guess the extra stock allowed them to use them all the way into the 1800s. At least that's what I've heard before. These stock were then brought down to Canton where they were decorated, and then sold. They had so much canton plates being exported, that they were being used as a ballast for ships.
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TeaTotaling
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Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:26 pm

@Mark-S's cup, and @Bok's lead warning, had me inspecting my porcelain! This cup appears to have a hairline kiln crack, I'm thinking. Would anyone be concerned about possible lead leaching from this :?: :?:
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Mark-S
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Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:29 pm

@Hmm

Ah, now I understand. It's amazing how much you guys know about this stuff. :D

@TeaTotaling

This cup does not look that old to me, and the hairline crack is very small. In my opinion it's unlikely to leach lead, but I am no expert. There are test kits out there that can detect (high) doses of lead. Many collectors use the swabs from 3M, but they are expensive outside the US. There is also a cheaper swab test from another company and a water test available. I own all three, but I have not used the 3M swabs yet. I used the kit from Scitus for the old cup I own (viewtopic.php?p=25417#p25417), but it did not detect lead. Maybe it's because of the detection limit or because I did something wrong. :? You have to wet the cheaper swabs with white vinegar. I used something called "Heller Wein-Branntwein-Essig" from Germany. It's a mix from 1/4 "Weißweinessig" (white wine vinegar) and 3/4 "Branntweinessig" (brandy vinegar). I also used the water test on this cup and it was negative (poured boiling water into the cup and let it cool down). Maybe I'll buy me some solder wire with lead to test the kits.





Mark-S
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Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:56 pm

A quick update on the three plates.
Mark-S wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:22 am
Image
"The blank plate was made late 18th century and decorated 1800 - 1820 Canton blue."
Mark-S wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:22 am
Image
"It has a Daoguang mark. Probably mark and period."

This would mean 1821-1850.
Mark-S
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Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:20 am

Mark-S wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:22 am
Image
"Possibly Song or Jin dynasty judging by the base. Qingbai ware. If the glaze were white I would say Ding ware but not sure with uneven unglazed area below the rim. If it was Ding it would likely not be the Ding kiln. This is excavated. May I ask if you got this already? If it is now in China and you want to export it, I would advise to forget about it. It is risky now..."

I don't think it's worth much, but still... pretty cool. 8-) I did not know that this plate was excavated.

There was a tint on the image because my screen was not calibrated properly. For this reason, I'll add another photo I took with my smartphone to this post. The glaze however still does not look white to me.

So of 9 inexpensive plates only 1 was a replica and 2 were vintage and not antiques. That's a nice outcome in my opinion for someone who knows little about porcelain. I just took some photos of verified pieces and compared them to inexpensive ones from private sellers. I could not have afforded to buy these plates from an accredited dealer.

Update - After the new photo he added this to the conversation:

"'qingbai' is a whitish color with a celadon tint. It is clearly not of the white variation. Certain kilns of the Tang and Song dynasties produced white porcelain which would be called yellow or light gray nowadays, The Chinese still call those off-white variations today 'white' although they are not white in today's sense. The same is the case with other colors. But they are slightly different from the 'qingbai' white.

If you have it already out of China there is no problem. It seems to be prohibited now to even own excavated porcelain in China. I believe they confiscate such items if found.

The yellowish color of the unglazed areas points to ingrained soil. Most items of that period are excavated, although not all do show soil sediment; the likeliness of something that old being handed down until today is small."

"You will not find a pure (snow) white glaze in all of Chinese porcelain before the 20th century. Such a white color is usually a sign that an item is more recent, that is a fake."
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TeaTotaling
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Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:07 pm

@Mark-S Awesome, thank you for the helpful insight into testing! The cup is not too old, 70s Jingdezhen Porcelain, which I like a lot. Although @OCTO has displayed some porcelain in the B&W Appreciation thread which looks to be very fine!!
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pantry
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Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:56 pm

TeaTotaling wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:07 pm
Mark-S Awesome, thank you for the helpful insight into testing! The cup is not too old, 70s Jingdezhen Porcelain, which I like a lot. Although OCTO has displayed some porcelain in the B&W Appreciation thread which looks to be very fine!!
I grew up using these bowls and dishes, and kept using them even with hairline cracks as long as they weren't leaky. Would love to know your test result if you ever get it done :D
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