"Neutral" Clays

[Kawaramono]

Hi all,

Curious if we could make a running list of teaware clays that are known to have a generally "neutral" effect on most teas.

Even though it may be sacrilegious to some, I think I may not be alone in my desire to handle and use teaware that looks and feels something like 'traditional unglazed yixing' ; but brews rather neutrally, somewhat akin to porcelain ------ I am very keen on exploring teas "as they are" - & - am also a huge fan of fragrance and bright top notes on the nose and in the cup, and those are aspects I want to keep or potentially even enhance (in say, greenish oolongs, etc).

There is of course a time and place for glass/porcelain gaiwan (which is the obvious answer here) - but sometimes that is just not the aesthetic experience you want when drinking a tea. There's something special about handling classic red/brown/purple clay teawares that I would love to incorporate into my routine, without altering the taste of the teas too much.

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Looking for examples of:

Unglazed clays that reliably preform neutrally
Clay Teaware that tends to be "covertly" or "lightly glazed" with matte / satin finishes (either naturally by traditional process, or "deceptively")
Unglazed clays that further enhance fragrance/top notes above and beyond what porcelain retains (does this exist? )

I read in other threads that some modern mass produced taiwanese clay teaware might fit the bill.
The work of potter Inge Nielsen comes to mind, with glazed pieces that retain traditional aesthetics.

Open to the full spectrum of quality: low / high / mass produced / handmade etc. Chinese / Japanese / Taiwanese, doesn't matter
Just wanna know whats out there, and learn more about it!

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This a topic that gets flirted with in other threads here and there, but I think it is a unique enough "type" of teaware that warrants its own thread ---

As the old saying goes: "One man's boring non-reactive dud of a teapot is another man's neutral treasure"

[pedant]

watching this thread with interest.

i feel kind of the same way. i like my teapots, but i prefer tea from gaiwans.

i'd love to have a jozan IV teapot made of porcelain, lol.

[Bok]

Interesting thread!

Without further derailing the topic as a sidenote – porcelain is also not really neutral... Octo has made some interesting comparisons elsewhere on the forum. Maybe better to call it sort-of-neutral

Unglazed clays that further enhance fragrance/top notes above and beyond what porcelain retains (does this exist? )

That would be high fired Zhuni – but with the caveat that there are many kinds of Zhuni (over periods of history, processing, blending etc.). But as a simple answer, Zhuni is that clay in my experience.

As the old saying goes: "One man's boring non-reactive dud of a teapot is another man's neutral treasure"

Love this!

Speaking of national treasures, Japanese porcelain I did have some bad experiences, it is often quite muting/detrimental to teas that need high temperatures. Not sure if it is the glaze, bas material or firing method that causes this.

[Bok]

Some Tokoname Shudei I have found to be relatively neutral per the clay/tea interaction, yet the heat retention has some downsides that result in less neutral results in the cup in my experience. But I did mostly try vintage items, may be the more recent ones do have different properties.

[oeroe]

I think "neutral" is entirely subjective.

I'm used to having certain kinds of tea from certain teapots. If I'm sampling pu'er, I brew it in my pu'er pot. If I tried it with porcelain gaiwan instead, I would be introducing a new variable. My taste is "calibrated" to my teaware, my teaware is neutral to me.

[LeoFox]

I think "neutral" is entirely subjective.

I'm used to having certain kinds of tea from certain teapots. If I'm sampling pu'er, I brew it in my pu'er pot. If I tried it with porcelain gaiwan instead, I would be introducing a new variable. My taste is "calibrated" to my teaware, my teaware is neutral to me.

I agree.

Even different gaiwan will show teas in different ways - just because of shape and thickness. Type of porcelain too.

This kind of discussion ultimately needs to be grounded on something we all agree can be defined as neutral - a kind of reference standard. And then everything else can be compared to that standard. I guess the international standard tasting cup may be the closest to that.

[Kawaramono]

There's definitely been some good points up brought up here, regarding the concept of neutrality being subjective, "neutral" teaware not always being neutral when you start to dissect it, etc (hence the quotes in the thread title ) Those are definitely valid considerations, though i feel like from a philosophical standpoint, it can be easy to get lost in the weeds chasing an objectivity that doesn't necessarily need to cleanly exist, and you can miss out on some good old fashioned and potentially helpful anecdotal evidence

I think I'm okay with the grey area being there, and hearing thoughts on what folks have experienced to themselves as behaving relatively neutrally - from a material standpoint - in comparison to teaware they felt the material itself really muted or colored the tea.

I think a good analogy would be talking about the weather outside. Many of us live in different parts of the world, and would have differing definitions of what "its a comfortable temperature outside" means. Though the number of people who would say that -28 degrees celsius is a comfortable outside temperature for them would likely be few, nor would we likely get many votes at 49 degrees celcius either Likely many of the answers would hover around 10-25 C ---- and if someone lived in the arctic and thought that was insanely hot, they'd probably say "I think thats hot, but hey, I live in the arctic, so take my preference with a grain of ice" ---- We might not nail down an exact scientific definition of "comfortable temperature" ; but we will float around in a general spectrum that likely many folks can relate to and work with.

Of course no one insinuated that we cant figure out useful parameters to discuss "neutral" teaware within, and all thoughts so far have been useful and constructive; I just wanted to mention the above because in my life experience I have seen too many conversations die or fizzle out simply because of semantics or an unwillingness to swim around in grey areas.

but swimming in the grey area can be fun, I promise the water is a comfortable temperature!

[Kawaramono]

Unglazed clays that further enhance fragrance/top notes above and beyond what porcelain retains (does this exist? )

That would be high fired Zhuni – but with the caveat that there are many kinds of Zhuni (over periods of history, processing, blending etc.). But as a simple answer, Zhuni is that clay in my experience.

Thank you for this recommendation Bok...! I had been looking into Zhuni on my short-list based on info garnered from other discussions; but like you've alluded to, what "zhuni" can mean quickly splinters into several different directions that are not all the same ( yes, I take accountability for the irony of this statment in relation to my comment above ) ------- In your experience, do various kinds of zhuni still tend to "preform" similarly (from a purely material / reactivity standpoint), granted that they are high fired? I take it the high firing part is doing a lot of the heavy lifting, and maybe makes the natural range of these clays more similar by the end of the production process? Asking because there are some reasonably priced "modern zhuni" from decent vendors floating around for around $150 or so; if the desired effect can still be experienced with something like that, that would be great. If on the other hand, the answer is "the effect only really happens with XYZ aged clay from XYZ era, and the modern ones likely won't" I can accept that, and will narrow my searches.


--- re: tokoname shudei; I was gifted a nice kyusu from the place that I work (a Japanese cultural organization); and remember doing a comparative cupping with my girlfriend. In the end we were surprised of how little / no difference there was in taste from the material (I brewed in glass, and poured half the tea into a cup, and the other half into the kyusu for it to react with - drank at equalized temp). N = 1, as usual with me , but glad to know I wasn't imagining things.

[.m.]

The effect of most high fired clays is in my experience relatively small compared to the effect of water, to the point I'd have a difficulty telling what effect does which of my pots have (however I have neither the most sensitive palate nor a great sense of smell). And there is no neutral water, unless one means a distilled water which makes terrible tea.
As to your requirements, it sounds silver might be the answer.

[Bok]

Not sure 150$ will get you true Zhuni in most cases… can’t comment on modern Zhuni, I only own one.

Also can’t say it’s the fire alone, I have experienced at least a good dozen of different old Zhuni, different in subtle ways, inconsequential to most probably, but it’s there. All fired well and in similar shapes and sizes, so these factors can possibly be discounted(although important per se). You see, we’re quickly getting into nit picky complicated territory… apologies, no easy answers in regards to clay

[Bok]

The effect of most high fired clays is in my experience relatively small compared to the effect of water, to the point I'd have a difficulty telling what effect does which of my pots have (however I have neither the most sensitive palate nor a great sense of smell). And there is no neutral water, unless one means a distilled water which makes terrible tea.
As to your requirements, it sounds silver might be the answer.

I’m not so sure about silver. I wouldn’t call it neutral, it’s the one material that can bring out the worst of a tea with ease…

[.m.]

The effect of most high fired clays is in my experience relatively small compared to the effect of water, to the point I'd have a difficulty telling what effect does which of my pots have (however I have neither the most sensitive palate nor a great sense of smell). And there is no neutral water, unless one means a distilled water which makes terrible tea.
As to your requirements, it sounds silver might be the answer.

I’m not so sure about silver. I wouldn’t call it neutral, it’s the one material that can bring out the worst of a tea with ease…

You're right. I meant in terms of enhancing fragrance. But now that you say it, it could well be the reason why the silver plated teapot I've tried sucked so badly

[mbanu]

The effect of most high fired clays is in my experience relatively small compared to the effect of water, to the point I'd have a difficulty telling what effect does which of my pots have (however I have neither the most sensitive palate nor a great sense of smell). And there is no neutral water, unless one means a distilled water which makes terrible tea.
As to your requirements, it sounds silver might be the answer.

Usually the challenge with silver teapots is that they handle heat retention differently. This isn't a problem with black teas (they have historically done well with silver), but might not work quite the same with other teas -- if someone has any tea-friends who already own silver teapots (in either the English or Taiwanese style), i would see if they might let that person borrow a pot for a bit (or have tea together) to test out the sort of teas they usually like in a silver teapot before buying one themselves.

[Kawaramono]

Not sure 150$ will get you true Zhuni in most cases… can’t comment on modern Zhuni, I only own one.

oh for sure, I'm certainly not under the impression that I'm getting "the real thing" per se - but I am curious about seeing if this kind of accessible and passable quality "high fired red clay" can meet the "neutrality" mark. I'm def not expecting this to do anything magical, but if it doesn't do much of anything, I will have learned something and also gained a clay pot I will actually use

I ended up ordering one from tea-masters, as my curiosity for this kind of entry level modern pot (for the purpose of neutrality) has gotten the best of me - Haven't seen much info about the "yixing" he offers, but hoping his pride and the passion he puts elsewhere in his business will at least decrease the chances of getting something that is obviously unsafe/garbage. I will do some reaction tests and taste comparisons when it arrives and report back.
https://www.tea-masters.com/en/yixing-t ... eapot.html <<< this is the pot, in particular, btw

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with that said, if anyone knows of a decent source for true/vintage zhuni, or a spare pot you're willing to part ways with ( ), I would be open to taking a serious look -- the idea of a clay highlighting fragrance and top notes above what glass or porcelain would do certainly has my interest piqued, and something I would be willing to invest in experiencing, even if the gains are subtle.

[Baiyun]

@Kawaramono I have 5 red pots, 4 are modern zhuni and one vintage hongni, all from different sources and with clay of vastly different appearance, none of them are neutral.

All of them thicken tea and through that seem to trim the high notes a little bit. The same tea from a gaiwan or glass will taste flatter and sharper, and whilst I don't like that kind of thin and flat profile for most teas I drink, there is no denying that it preserves the very highest and sharpest notes that get rounded out a bit in any clay I've ever tried.

And it's clearly the clay and not so much the other thermal properties because when brewing tea in a gaiwan and then briefly pouring half into a pot to interact with the clay for a few seconds and then into a cup, and the other half straight from the gaiwan into a cup, the clay liquor is once again thicker and rounded off.

I don't have sufficient experience with antique zhuni but I also think zhuni in general is safely your best bet for yixing origin wares with the unglazed appearance you are after. Water wants to pearl off zhuni a bit more whereas it sinks right into more porous hongni, zini, and so on, so the difference in surface area interactions should be significant. I drink green oolongs out of two of my zhuni pots based on their shape and wall thickness.

Another clay that comes to mind, from Yunnan this time, is Jianshui. I never tried one of these but they seem have very little porosity and are said to be a bit more neutral than most yixing, although hand thrown with thicker walls. I recall that these are quite affordable and can certainly look attractive.