"Neutral" Clays

[Kawaramono]

thats very helpful feedback @Baiyun - you likely saved me a lot of "groundwork" in that regard, as your process essentially follows exactly what I was planning on doing > but knowing you have ~4 such pots and that they are giving you similar results will likely keep me from repeatedly investing in "just one more modern zhuni pot to try" hoping for a magic result "next time" Likely there are more fruitful avenues to invest/experiment in

looking forward to messing around with the pot when it comes in regardless; i appreciated your post in the other thread about evaluating clay reactivity. when I saw it i was like "oh wow! that thought that I had in my mind has just manifest itself across space time in a long post by another user with illustrated flow charts and everything", serendipitous tea forum spiritual moment

[Bok]

hoping his pride and the passion he puts elsewhere in his business will at least decrease the chances of getting something that is obviously unsafe/garbage.

Let's just say he is a tea guy. His pots won't kill you. It might be that not-100%-pure Zhuni will actually come closer to neutrality than a proper one... I found that modern Yixing can be very neutral, unresponsive to tea as the clay is blended and fired beyond anything that will interact with the tea. But admittedly my sample size is small, so feel free to ignore this.

[oeroe]

To continue more on this "neutrality", I have two zini pots from Wuxing Shanfang. One is what Chanting Pines calls "diamond grade", and one is "bronze grade". If drinking same tea from both pots, there are some brighter, lighter tastes which are present in the diamond pot, but I tend to miss them in the bronze pot. I like to use the diamond pot for better yancha, or traditional roast taiwanese oolongs. I think it would be a great pot for lighter oolongs too, I just don't really have them.
You could say that the bronze is less neutral, it masks something that diamond doesn't, or that diamond is less neutral, as it highlights something. So here neutrality is still subjective, we need to make a judgement call on which is the baseline.
I strongly prefer both pots to any porcelain or glazed stuff I have, and I wouldn't call any of them being closer to porcelain than the other. That said, my porcelain/glazed options are more limited.

The main takeaway from this has been that zini is not zini. I don't at least have wide enough experience to say that "zini" clay does something to tea. I do have views on some individual pots I've had for a long time, but the large differences between individual pots make it hard to claim anything more general. More experienced people do of course have that wider experience, and can offer some generalities, and there are good suggestions on clay/tea type pairings here. I think finding a good match is better goal than finding a "neutral" pot.

[Bok]

The main takeaway from this has been that zini is not zini. I don't at least have wide enough experience to say that "zini" clay does something to tea. I do have views on some individual pots I've had for a long time, but the large differences between individual pots make it hard to claim anything more general. More experienced people do of course have that wider experience, and can offer some generalities, and there are good suggestions on clay/tea type pairings here. I think finding a good match is better goal than finding a "neutral" pot.

Exactly this! After handling a lot of different kinds of Zini I can only confirm this. Zini is not Zini. It is on a pot by pot basis. This is true for all the other Yixing clays as well...

[Iizuki]

[...]

This kind of discussion ultimately needs to be grounded on something we all agree can be defined as neutral - a kind of reference standard. And then everything else can be compared to that standard. I guess the international standard tasting cup may be the closest to that.

I wasn't aware of such cup, but you got me interested. It really does seem like the the ISO 3103 standard defines a couple of pots and cups for tea tasting. They aren't unglazed of course, but maybe I should still get a set...

[GaoShan]

Another clay that comes to mind, from Yunnan this time, is Jianshui. I never tried one of these but they seem have very little porosity and are said to be a bit more neutral than most yixing, although hand thrown with thicker walls. I recall that these are quite affordable and can certainly look attractive.

Has anyone tried Jianshui clay with green oolongs? I kind of discounted it because of the thicker walls, but it's interesting to hear that it has low porosity.

All of my knowledge of clay comes from TeaForum, so I don't have much to add to this thread. I'm constantly searching for pots that work well with green oolongs and aromatic black teas, so our interests kind of overlap. I want something that doesn't mute the aromas and maybe adds some body. The common wisdom is that antique high-fired Zhuni is the best, followed by F1 Hongni, then modern Zhuni and/or Hongni, although finding "authentic" versions of modern clays is hard. Then again, an antique Zhuni will cost you the equivalent of several modern pots...

You could also go with a thin-walled porcelain pot, though finding one in a small size is even harder than finding a good Yixing, and it will cost you about the same. There are also the caveats others have mentioned about some kinds of porcelain having different effects, though I can't comment on that. A thin-walled porcelain gaiwan will be cheaper and provide the same effects if you like gaiwans. You could also try Mumyoi or Nosaka red clay from Japan, though I don't own this clay and can't recommend it from personal experience.

Basically, I'm not sure if there's really a neutral vessel and finding pots that complement aromatic teas is difficult and often expensive, but the search can become addictive!

[Bok]

Has anyone tried Jianshui clay with green oolongs? I kind of discounted it because of the thicker walls, but it's interesting to hear that it has low porosity.

From what I gather Jianshui's (Nixing as well) main plus point is that it is cheap... Have not heard of many who really love it for much else than Puerh (more likely to do with the relative thickness than the clay itself).

[GaoShan]

Has anyone tried Jianshui clay with green oolongs? I kind of discounted it because of the thicker walls, but it's interesting to hear that it has low porosity.

From what I gather Jianshui's (Nixing as well) main plus point is that it is cheap... Have not heard of many who really love it for much else than Puerh (more likely to do with the relative thickness than the clay itself).

That seems in line with what I've read as well. Aside from Yixing, I haven't heard of a Chinese clay that works with oolongs other than Chaozhou.

[Kawaramono]

@GaoShan

Thanks for those thoughts above; it's always nice to find other folks following parallel paths or on the hunt for similar ends.

I hadn't considered the Mumyoi/Nosaka clays from Japan; but that's a really good lead considering how folks have been describing some of them.

It makes me think about how quite likely there are many parts of the world just sitting on potentially amazing clay for tea, but not every place has a hyper developed culture around tea/teaware, so there is no tea specific industry/history/culture/craftspeople driving the development and refinement of that base material towards making amazing teapots. But, technically, the clay is out there ---- somehwat off topic, but there is a similar situation in rock climbing (I'm a rock climber); there are certain "famous destinations" for climbing, with truly exquisite stone; and those places get flooded with the best climbers in the world, they get developed and mapped out, a climbing culture develops there, etc ----- meanwhile in some other country, a long ways from any town, there can be piles of the same exact type of exquisite stone just sitting on a mountainside, that have probably never seen a single hand....

...that being said, there are worse fates than being at the mercy of craftspeople who come from robust tea drinking cultures, limited in using what is available to them. It's nice to have boundaries sometimes. Plus as we all know, if you can't go wider, you can always go deeper down the rabbit hole

[GaoShan]

GaoShan

Thanks for those thoughts above; it's always nice to find other folks following parallel paths or on the hunt for similar ends.

I hadn't considered the Mumyoi/Nosaka clays from Japan; but that's a really good lead considering how folks have been describing some of them.

It makes me think about how quite likely there are many parts of the world just sitting on potentially amazing clay for tea, but not every place has a hyper developed culture around tea/teaware, so there is no tea specific industry/history/culture/craftspeople driving the development and refinement of that base material towards making amazing teapots. But, technically, the clay is out there ---- somehwat off topic, but there is a similar situation in rock climbing (I'm a rock climber); there are certain "famous destinations" for climbing, with truly exquisite stone; and those places get flooded with the best climbers in the world, they get developed and mapped out, a climbing culture develops there, etc ----- meanwhile in some other country, a long ways from any town, there can be piles of the same exact type of exquisite stone just sitting on a mountainside, that have probably never seen a single hand....

...that being said, there are worse fates than being at the mercy of craftspeople who come from robust tea drinking cultures, limited in using what is available to them. It's nice to have boundaries sometimes. Plus as we all know, if you can't go wider, you can always go deeper down the rabbit hole

I also wonder about all that untapped clay. I know of people making pots using clay from Taiwan, Europe, and Georgia in the U.S., though the latter two options are usually thicker walled and may have different heat retention properties. I'm sure the tea culture affects which types of clay get made into high-quality teapots.

And yes, the rabbit hole is endless!

[Ethan Kurland]

Kararou mono,

It seems to me that you were somewhat focused on a good Zhuni pot as a start. You also asked the ? about whom you could rely on.

Though I know little about clays etc., I do have a good understanding of people & this forum. Over the years, teapots obtained from Bok have pleased many forum members drawing plenty of praise & no disappointment. So, I suggest you look to Bok for help; moreover, once you have a good Zhuni pot & the teas that it should enhance, honestly assess whether various clays & pots matter to you really.

Many of us believe that the quality of leaves & water prepared well (ratio of leaves to water, temperature of water, & how long steeping lasts = parameters) is what matters. I am not knocking those who like to feel the nuances of clays, pots, etc. (I have dabbled in that area a bit myself) but some of us (perhaps the majority of members) think that area of enjoying tea is not important.

To find out if you care, I suggest you get that good Zhuni pot from a good man & vendor, Bok. Cheers

[Kawaramono]

@Ethan Kurland

Thank you for that advice Ethan; you read my current place along the journey well --- even right up to the point that I had just inquired with Bok about such a pot not moments ago; perhaps there is a mystical destiny at play here

Your words about the importance of clay in relation to other brewing parameters (and the tea itself, of course) are sound and wise. As a naturally analytical person that also transitioned into tea out of modern specialty coffee, I think my baseline approach to tasting and preparing tea is already rooted in "experiment experiment experiment" (maybe even too much, but I think I see that phase as a necessary step along the journey). I nearly exclusively brew tea with comparative tasting methods every morning [either two similar teas to one another, or the same tea brewed with different parameters, compared to its counterpart]. I happen to enjoy experiencing tea this way, and am lucky to have a partner who enjoys tasting attentively and sharing thoughts. I cannot claim to know much, and a far from mastery - but the nuances of brewing are something I am at least confident I will continue exploring for a long time; so in that sense it's important to note that I'm not looking for a holy grail piece of gear that will magically make all of my tea amazing (and thats a real risk, plenty of it in the coffee world too, with $3,500 grinders which will do nothing for poorly roasted beans or inattentive preperation, but plenty of folks willing to shell out the cash hoping for an quick fix). So in that regard, I genuinely appreciate the cautionary advice - it is real and necessary.

You read me well though, in my heart I know I will remain curious; and pattering about amassing lower quality pieces that will fail to quench my curiosity will cost just as much but leave me dissatisfied still. Wiser to make a sound investment with a good person, accept the possibility that perceived gains may likely be marginal, and take it for what it is.

In a way it's a blessing I am not in the least bit wealthy, and so must focus and limit my choices --- I am not really a collector type, but I am known to chase the upper ends of skill or quality, and have always been this way. With a skill: passion, practice, and attentiveness can bring you closer to your goals. With teapots, you either have the piece in your hand to brew with, or you don't - no two ways around it Luckily there are folks who have devoted their time and energy into cultivating the skill of finding and learning the nuances of these wares, in a way and breadth I likely will never have the opportunity to. Likewise with those of you who source tea. So I am genuinely grateful to the community in that way, for sharing the pieces of the big puzzle that they have access to with the rest of us. I hope that, one day, I can give back to the community in a meaningful way myself.

phew, that got sappy quick but i do mean it!

[wave_code]

Has anyone tried Jianshui clay with green oolongs? I kind of discounted it because of the thicker walls, but it's interesting to hear that it has low porosity.

From what I gather Jianshui's (Nixing as well) main plus point is that it is cheap... Have not heard of many who really love it for much else than Puerh (more likely to do with the relative thickness than the clay itself).

Being the resident advocate here I'd say nixing has more to offer than just being cheap, but yeah it has things to offer for the right kinds of teas and I don't think oolongs fall in that category. Though I've also used it pretty extensively for sheng and sheng-like raw liu bao and liu an with nice results... but yeah for oolongs I would be quite skeptical. I could be totally wrong though given that I just don't really care for that kind of tea, but for I'd much sooner throw something high roast in nixing than something green. Very thick and stewed liquor I feel is not exactly what gaoshan drinkers are chasing

Jianshui I'd take a pass on for that too. I know some people say its good for muting young sheng but the heat retention is so high I don't know how one would make anything on the green side of things in that clay and not cook it to death. Any time I tried raw even wetter stored sheng it was overcooked and bitter. The only thing I see it being useful for in regards to oolong would be cooking the last bits out of fancy yancha. In a way it is a bit of a shame that jianshui clay can't be made with thinner walls and is actually quite difficult to form and fire. If it were possible it would work better for a wider variety of teas it would provide a nice alternative to sketchy locomotive 'yixing' pots for beginners or people on a budget.

As others said I think any of Hojo's teas would be a much safer bet if you want to try something other than yixing or CZ.

[Baisao]

I hadn't considered the Mumyoi/Nosaka clays from Japan; but that's a really good lead considering how folks have been describing some of them.

Mumyoi is a wonderful clay for Japanese teas but it is not at all neutral, if neutral is what you are looking for. It is generally rounding and not muting. The biggest change I notice is that it makes tea seem thicker & smoother than shudei.

Regarding modern zhuni there are multiple mines for authentic modern zhuni but they could be variable as some are deep and some are shallow, some are sandier than others, some have more iron than others, etc. I think @LeoFox could comment more on modern zhuni production.

Whereas vintage zhuni was blended with other clays and/or grog to make it workable, modern producers are apparently able to make 100% pure zhuni teapots now using recent advances.

Antique zhuni is extremely variable in the tea it produces compared to modern (90s) zhuni. Some antiques brew true and others rob flavor like a bandit. Modern zhuni will be variable but not to the same degree, in my experience. I’ve never had a 90s zhuni pot alter tea as significantly as some antique ones.

Of course, every teapot is different. They will be different even from the same maker, batch, and clay. But the variances with 90s zhuni are less than other clays I’ve sampled.

[LeoFox]

My understanding is that real modern zhuni comes from zaozhuan or xiao mei yao. There is also deep mine versus shallow mine. The deep mine zaozhuan has the highest iron but Is relatively comparable to deep mine xiao mei yao in elemental composition. The shallow mine has lower iron, and is sandier, allowing it to be worked more easily (and is much cheaper - below 200$ if it is not full hand made).


Here is an example of shallow mine:


https://www.facebook.com/groups/2179755 ... 4495560475