The Porcelain Thread

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LeoFox
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Wed Feb 15, 2023 7:07 am

LeoFox wrote:
Mon Feb 13, 2023 11:09 am
This one is claimed to be an edo period soba noodle cup - not sure how old it really is but seems appropriate for sencha. Seems to have some dark marks on it that resisted baking soda and soap- if a percarbonate soak Cleans this up-will update this post. Based on what I have learned (see below) - this seems to be a relatively old cup.

Update: percarbonate didn't do anything




These soba cups or soba choko have a bit of history:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soba_choko

Dating Edo period Edo era (ko-Imari) soba choko production falls into three distinct periods, Shoki period (1620–1720), Chuki period (1721–1788) and Koki period (1789–1867). Each period characterised design, shape and style transformation. Within in each era there are exceptions in hallmark designs and shapes. 

Shoki period soba choko (1620-1720 - Genwa-Kyoho eras) generally featured poorer quality, often disfigured, thick sides and bases with oxide assuming a washed out appearance through thicker clear glaze. As the era progressed refinements and higher quality finishes become the norm. Traditional design were simple hand painted and also used stencils/stamping known as inban. The soba choko was generally heavy in feel. The shape and design were stable and featured similar base, oxide designs and patterning.

Chuki period soba choko (1720–1788) saw a rapid progression of designs and intricate patterns. Kiln stamps appeared and the quality of glazes and porcelain bodies improved. These early to mid era choko featured thin bases and rims, no kiln/era marks (Mikomi-moyo) and no top inner border markings (Renzoku mon). It was only in the last few years of Chuki leading into the Koki period did kiln marks and seals, top inner border patterns start to evolve.

Koki period soba choko spanned the final 78 years of Edo (1789–1867). The period is the easiest to identify. The underside base featured an 'eyeball' style circle (Janome kodai), used kiln marks, had decorative inner borders and also featured at time decorative top rims.

.
Designs were hand painted or stenciled in freeform, embedded in frames or placed within bands. Four main design categories were used and included:

Plants - symbolising prosperity, health and long life
Landscapes - sea, mountains, temples, garden scenes
Mingei - geometrics, repeating patterns, seasonal images such as harvests
Animals - horses, fish, birds, bats, turtles, seaweed, clams and dragons
Certain designs today are highly sought by collectors and usually center around animal design and highly ornate polychrome choko as productions numbers were limited and are very difficult to source today.


Side by side comparison of this noodle cup with dehua cup from dxjd using a hojo sencha I know very well - tsukigase

GaoShan
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Sun Feb 19, 2023 6:18 am

I'm still on my sporadic quest to find a good small porcelain teapot. Do you know whether all of Inge Nielsen's back-handle pots have ball filters? I prefer flat filters, but they seem to be hard to find—as are all small porcelain pots in general. I blame all those gaiwan lovers ruining it for us teapot people! :roll:
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LeoFox
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Sun Feb 19, 2023 6:27 am

GaoShan wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 6:18 am
I'm still on my sporadic quest to find a good small porcelain teapot. Do you know whether all of Inge Nielsen's back-handle pots have ball filters? I prefer flat filters, but they seem to be hard to find—as are all small porcelain pots in general. I blame all those gaiwan lovers ruining it for us teapot people! :roll:
Why do you hate gaiwans? Did you use one and it burnt your fingers? Nothing beats gaiwan in terms of speed and control- also easily allowing you to see the leaves. Mine have never burnt my fingers. They are also cheaper and easier to clean than pots.

Just saying
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Victoria
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Sun Feb 19, 2023 12:11 pm

GaoShan wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 6:18 am
I'm still on my sporadic quest to find a good small porcelain teapot. Do you know whether all of Inge Nielsen's back-handle pots have ball filters? I prefer flat filters, but they seem to be hard to find—as are all small porcelain pots in general. I blame all those gaiwan lovers ruining it for us teapot people! :roll:
Don’t know about Inge’s teapots but have only heard good things about their quality. You might ask her directly, she’s pretty quick to reply. My porcelain teapot collection, which is growing, consists of antique Japanese kyusu; side-handled, back-handled, top-handled, houhin, and shiboridashi ranging from 60ml-350ml. Love using them to steep new teas, some aromatic and more delicate teas, as pitchers… Most are Kyoyaki, exceptionally made by recognized artisans, all seem to have wall filters. I rarely use a gaiwan mostly only pull those out for group tastings.
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Baisao
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Sun Feb 19, 2023 12:48 pm

GaoShan wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 6:18 am
I'm still on my sporadic quest to find a good small porcelain teapot. Do you know whether all of Inge Nielsen's back-handle pots have ball filters? I prefer flat filters, but they seem to be hard to find—as are all small porcelain pots in general. I blame all those gaiwan lovers ruining it for us teapot people! :roll:
They do have ball filters. She can also make custom pots if you want one without a ball filter. As @Victoria said, you can always ask Inge directly.

I also can’t use a gaiwan but that’s due to a tremor I’ve had since I was a teenager. I imagine others may have similar problems with gaiwans.
GaoShan
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Location: Toronto, Canada

Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:08 pm

Baisao wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 12:48 pm
GaoShan wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 6:18 am
I'm still on my sporadic quest to find a good small porcelain teapot. Do you know whether all of Inge Nielsen's back-handle pots have ball filters? I prefer flat filters, but they seem to be hard to find—as are all small porcelain pots in general. I blame all those gaiwan lovers ruining it for us teapot people! :roll:
They do have ball filters. She can also make custom pots if you want one without a ball filter. As Victoria said, you can always ask Inge directly.

I also can’t use a gaiwan but that’s due to a tremor I’ve had since I was a teenager. I imagine others may have similar problems with gaiwans.
I don't hate gaiwans; I'm just not coordinated enough to use them without burning myself or having the lid fly out of my grasp and break. Teapots seem like a less anxiety-inducing alternative. (After all, making tea should be fun!)

@Victoria, I'll ask Inge Nielsen about custom ordering a pot. Also, where have you found small back-handled kyusu? I have a houhin that's easier to pour with than a gaiwan, though it also gets hot during long steeps.
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Baisao
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Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:21 pm

GaoShan wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:08 pm
Baisao wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 12:48 pm
GaoShan wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 6:18 am
I'm still on my sporadic quest to find a good small porcelain teapot. Do you know whether all of Inge Nielsen's back-handle pots have ball filters? I prefer flat filters, but they seem to be hard to find—as are all small porcelain pots in general. I blame all those gaiwan lovers ruining it for us teapot people! :roll:
They do have ball filters. She can also make custom pots if you want one without a ball filter. As Victoria said, you can always ask Inge directly.

I also can’t use a gaiwan but that’s due to a tremor I’ve had since I was a teenager. I imagine others may have similar problems with gaiwans.
I don't hate gaiwans; I'm just not coordinated enough to use them without burning myself or having the lid fly out of my grasp and break. Teapots seem like a less anxiety-inducing alternative. (After all, making tea should be fun!)

Victoria, I'll ask Inge Nielsen about custom ordering a pot. Also, where have you found small back-handled kyusu? I have a houhin that's easier to pour with than a gaiwan, though it also gets hot during long steeps.
Do you want one with or without a ball filter? I’ll add that the pot I have from her, even with a ball filter, is the fastest and smoothest pouring teapot I’ve used. The glazed interior doesn’t alter the flavor of the tea so it’s a good testing teapot.
GaoShan
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Location: Toronto, Canada

Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:34 pm

Baisao wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:21 pm
GaoShan wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:08 pm
Baisao wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 12:48 pm


They do have ball filters. She can also make custom pots if you want one without a ball filter. As Victoria said, you can always ask Inge directly.

I also can’t use a gaiwan but that’s due to a tremor I’ve had since I was a teenager. I imagine others may have similar problems with gaiwans.
I don't hate gaiwans; I'm just not coordinated enough to use them without burning myself or having the lid fly out of my grasp and break. Teapots seem like a less anxiety-inducing alternative. (After all, making tea should be fun!)

Victoria, I'll ask Inge Nielsen about custom ordering a pot. Also, where have you found small back-handled kyusu? I have a houhin that's easier to pour with than a gaiwan, though it also gets hot during long steeps.
Do you want one with or without a ball filter? I’ll add that the pot I have from her, even with a ball filter, is the fastest and smoothest pouring teapot I’ve used. The glazed interior doesn’t alter the flavor of the tea so it’s a good testing teapot.
I was looking for a pot without a ball filter. Based on the one ball-filter pot I have, they take up a lot of space and make the pot harder to clean. Are there any advantages to having a ball filter, or are they just easier for potters to make?
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Baisao
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Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:46 pm

@GaoShan, ball filters are easier for novices to use and are usually a nuisance. The pot I have from her, with the all filter, is not at all a nuisance: it doesn’t take up unnecessary space, the holes are large enough that they are easy to clean, and the flow is amazing.

Her teapot with the ball filter is the single exception I’ve found to them being a pain.

My concern with removing a filter on her teapots is that they flow so quickly that the flow will pull leaves out of the teapots, which is something you probably do not want.

This is to say: I’d stick to keeping a filter on an Inge teapot.

Perhaps @klepto could add his opinion to this.
GaoShan
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Sun Feb 19, 2023 6:12 pm

Baisao wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:46 pm
GaoShan, ball filters are easier for novices to use and are usually a nuisance. The pot I have from her, with the all filter, is not at all a nuisance: it doesn’t take up unnecessary space, the holes are large enough that they are easy to clean, and the flow is amazing.

Her teapot with the ball filter is the single exception I’ve found to them being a pain.

My concern with removing a filter on her teapots is that they flow so quickly that the flow will pull leaves out of the teapots, which is something you probably do not want.

This is to say: I’d stick to keeping a filter on an Inge teapot.

Perhaps klepto could add his opinion to this.
Thanks for providing this context! My biggest concern with ball filters is that they don't give teas like oolongs enough room to expand, but maybe I shouldn't be worried if the filters are as unobtrusive as you suggest. It's also encouraging to hear that Inge's pots have fast pours.
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Baisao
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Sun Feb 19, 2023 6:35 pm

GaoShan wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 6:12 pm
Baisao wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:46 pm
GaoShan, ball filters are easier for novices to use and are usually a nuisance. The pot I have from her, with the all filter, is not at all a nuisance: it doesn’t take up unnecessary space, the holes are large enough that they are easy to clean, and the flow is amazing.

Her teapot with the ball filter is the single exception I’ve found to them being a pain.

My concern with removing a filter on her teapots is that they flow so quickly that the flow will pull leaves out of the teapots, which is something you probably do not want.

This is to say: I’d stick to keeping a filter on an Inge teapot.

Perhaps klepto could add his opinion to this.
Thanks for providing this context! My biggest concern with ball filters is that they don't give teas like oolongs enough room to expand, but maybe I shouldn't be worried if the filters are as unobtrusive as you suggest. It's also encouraging to hear that Inge's pots have fast pours.
Yes, I thinks she’s on to something. They work great as they are.
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Baisao
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Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:33 pm

@GaoShan, here is a photo of my teapot from Inge and a detail of the ball filter.

The teapot is 150ml and pours at 30-40ml/sec according to my scale.
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wave_code
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Sun Mar 12, 2023 1:30 pm

Anyone have any ideas on these location or time period wise? I had assumed they are Japanese, although I had one Arita dealer tell me he was positive it wasn't Arita ware and didn't even think it was Japanese. It's very different from any Chinese vintage stuff I have or am familiar with though so I am pretty positive it's not Fujian/Dehua porcelain and still suspect they are Japanese. I'm guessing sake cups given the low profile - although maybe was even for vinegar or soy sauce originally? They are more on the blue/cool side rather than yellow
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Bok
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Tue Mar 14, 2023 12:16 am

not sure, the vibe I am getting is Chinese.
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wave_code
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Tue Mar 14, 2023 7:55 am

The way the blue line work is done it does feel more Chinese to me, and the pattern too, but my experience with Japanese ceramics, particularly older ones is very limited. I've seen these described as 'straw bale' pattern or something similar about straw before but that may mean absolutely nothing. To me it looks more like some sort of weird mix between hexagrams and chromosomes haha
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