Hohin vs. Shiboridashi for Gyokuro

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d.manuk
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Sat May 25, 2019 12:07 pm

I was wondering if you had a preference for using a hohin or a shiboridashi for brewing gyokuro, and why? I've never used either, and have been using an older kyusu while I explore gyokuro but I am wanting to now get my own dedicated vessel that would potentially work better for it.

Personally from what I've gathered, I seem to be leaning more towards a hohin as the idea of having a built in filter seems good to me. But some other people I've spoken with have said a shiboridashi is better because it has no filter. What do you think?
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Chip
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Sat May 25, 2019 8:42 pm

I definitely favor houhin (however you want to spell it) over shib for brewing gyokuro. I have collected houhin for a little over 10 years, and my experience is dominated by their use for brewing gyokuro.

Shibs, pretty recently I purchased 3 Hokujo, and tbh, have limited experience using them.

1. Ease of use, houhin is much easier to handle, regulate temps, and pour. They are truly easy to use.

Shibs are more challenging for all 3 of these criteria.

2. Results. Since it is easier to use, results are generally better with a houhin ... for me.

3. Availability. There are a lot of houhin on the new and preowned markets. They are very readily available. And seemingly scores of potters have made them.

They are also available on the cheap if you do not mind mass produced houhin.

They are also commonly produced in various regions. Tokoname, Hagi, Banko, Shigaraki, Bizen to name a few are easy to locate. Even multi nationally ... have some nice Korean ones by Seoung-Il (have to check spelling)

Shibs on the other hand ... the market is pretty limited and very few potters produce them routinely, Hokujo and Yamada Sou seem most "common". If you see one and want one ... buy it before it is gone.

4. Size. Houhin are available in a wide range of sizes.

Shibs because they are low and wide, are rarely seen beyond a few ounces, usually 1-2 ounces (30-60 ml) ... otherwise they would be seemingly monstrous.
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Baisao
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Sat May 25, 2019 9:21 pm

There is a misinformed belief that a shiboridashi allows the leaves to open more fully. This is nonsense. The leaves open fully in a houhin. The choice to use a shiboridashi is purely stylistic, as @Chip has carefully pointed out the numerous practical reasons houhin are superior to shiboridashi.
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debunix
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Sun May 26, 2019 2:22 am

A shiboridashi is a little easier to keep clean because there is no filter to be clogged. But otherwise, I agree, a hohin would probably be more convenient. I happen to have only shibos, and find they work OK, but the pours are of necessity a bit slow.
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Tor
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Sun May 26, 2019 9:46 am

Shibos are mostly wide and flat so tea leaves have better contact with water. With narrow vessel tea leaves will pile on top of each other. Shibo is more convenient if you like to brew tea very concentrated, using only small amount of water.

It was also designed to allow you to squeeze the last bit of tea broth from the wet leaves. I do not squeeze the leaves but I love the minimalistic of shibos.
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Baisao
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Sun May 26, 2019 9:57 pm

Tor wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 9:46 am
Shibos are mostly wide and flat so tea leaves have better contact with water. With narrow vessel tea leaves will pile on top of each other. Shibo is more convenient if you like to brew tea very concentrated, using only small amount of water.
Please elaborate on how a shallowly dished-shape gives more water contact to small leaves than a bowl-shape, assuming the same small volume of water.

Leaves are hardly “pile[d] on top of each other”, at least in no way that is detrimental.

Gyokuro is not a large leafed tea so it is all submerged in water in a houhin, even when making a strong steeping of it (4 grams for 40 ml). Because it is all submerged, volume is volume regardless of vessel shape.
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Tor
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Mon May 27, 2019 2:25 am

I don’t know the exact science behind this, but I found that the first infusion from my flat kyusu always gave thicker and fuller body than the deeper ones, using same parameters. The second infusion from flat kyusu was noticable weaker though.
Baisao wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 9:57 pm
Tor wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 9:46 am
Shibos are mostly wide and flat so tea leaves have better contact with water. With narrow vessel tea leaves will pile on top of each other. Shibo is more convenient if you like to brew tea very concentrated, using only small amount of water.
Please elaborate on how a shallowly dished-shape gives more water contact to small leaves than a bowl-shape, assuming the same small volume of water.

Leaves are hardly “pile[d] on top of each other”, at least in no way that is detrimental.

Gyokuro is not a large leafed tea so it is all submerged in water in a houhin, even when making a strong steeping of it (4 grams for 40 ml). Because it is all submerged, volume is volume regardless of vessel shape.
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Bok
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Mon May 27, 2019 3:19 am

@Tor same clay, same firing? Brewed next to each other? Same approximate volume and thickness of vessel?

There are lots of factors to take into account.
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Tor
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Mon May 27, 2019 10:35 am

Same Shudei clay from Gafu. The flat one brews the thickest tea of all my kyusus.

Never brew side by side, but the difference was obvious.
Bok wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 3:19 am
Tor same clay, same firing? Brewed next to each other? Same approximate volume and thickness of vessel?

There are lots of factors to take into account.
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steanze
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Mon May 27, 2019 3:22 pm

Tor wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 10:35 am
Same Shudei clay from Gafu. The flat one brews the thickest tea of all my kyusus.

Never brew side by side, but the difference was obvious.
Bok wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 3:19 am
Tor same clay, same firing? Brewed next to each other? Same approximate volume and thickness of vessel?

There are lots of factors to take into account.
The flat one also looks larger volume. It could retain heat longer...
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Victoria
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Mon May 27, 2019 5:05 pm

This thread has increased my TAD, finding myself grazing available shiboridashi and houhin. It also brings up for me an intermingling of thoughts regarding - reverence, aesthetics and function.

Gyokuro is to savor not drink.
Some teas are not to drink, but to sip slowly and be savored with a few drips dissipitating on tongue.
Special care is taken in processing quality gyokuro, only the best carefully tended shaded leaves are used, with second grade leaves reserved for other teas. The hand-processed unbroken needles are well formed whole leaf, and should be as uniform in length as possible. Gyokuro is steeped at cooler temperatures, meant to be slowly steeped, poured and enjoyed.

The vessel.
Thinking about vessels to steep gyokuro in, I think about the leaf and how it will be best expressed. Of course it is possible to steep gyokuro in most kyusu -side/back handle, houhin, shiboridashi. Over the years I have used them all for gyokuro. The form, the filter or lack of, and the clay used all affect outcomes.

Form.
I just did an experiment using same leaf:water with a medium grade sencha in a horizontal flat bottom glass and more vertical glass, the results surprised me. The horizontal steep was much richer and thicker than the vertical one, confirming what a few other people have observed. I think for this reason Hokujo, an avid tea drinker, has designed very horizontal shiboridashi for gyokuro. Aside from achieving a richer steep, Hokujo’s very horizontal shibo allows each needle to be seen and appreciated aesthetically while brewing. Also, the coarser stoneware surface may hold onto the leaf slightly while pouring (as my shigaraki does). With a horizontal form, a slower pour is needed, perfect for gyokuro. Disclosure: I do not own a Hokujo yet, although I have used a few, all my shiboridashi are rounded form, as are my houhin.

Handless kyusu like houhin and shiboridashi work well with cooler temperature teas.
  • Shiboridashi: No built in strainer - used to prepare teas with larger leaves and cooler temperatures like high quality gyokuro. The larger leaves are held back simply by the lid. Shallow form results in thicker richer brew. Rounded form produces a lighter brew, is good with slightly higher temperatures, similar to gaiwan (although with cooler water).
  • Houhin: Built in strainer - used to prepare teas with smaller more broken up leaves. Can also be used with larger leaf, although may get clogged more easily. Shallow versus rounded form results same as with shiboridashi above.

After taking all of these factors into consideration, one day I would like to own a Hokujo 120ml shiboridashi for gyokuro. I feel it most likely best expresses the leaf. More pure, simple, and direct. For the time being my shigaraki shibo is doing a great job. And I didn’t even talk about clay yet.

Experiment, form only, same leaf:water. Scalloped wood spoon used as lid, mimicking lid to grooved slots found in many shiboridashi.
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Baisao
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Mon May 27, 2019 5:43 pm

FWIW, I more often see shiboridashi with teeth that act as a filter rather that shiboridashi sans teeth. I think it is moot anyway as the filters on the houhin I’ve used allow a lot of sediment through, but I always poor slowly and deliberately so there’s not much leaf matter to act as a secondary filter.

However, from the photos above it appears there is more sediment from the horizontal vessel. This would definitely contribute to a richer flavor.

With this in mind, I suspect the difference could be from the leaf matter forming a secondary filter in the more vertical and more typically filtered vessels.
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Tor
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Mon May 27, 2019 10:23 pm

steanze wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 3:22 pm
Tor wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 10:35 am
Same Shudei clay from Gafu. The flat one brews the thickest tea of all my kyusus.

Never brew side by side, but the difference was obvious.
Bok wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 3:19 am
Tor same clay, same firing? Brewed next to each other? Same approximate volume and thickness of vessel?

There are lots of factors to take into account.
The flat one also looks larger volume. It could retain heat longer...
The volume are close, around 110-130ml. I have kyusus of different shapes and sizes, from 70 to 300ml. I feel that the effect has nothing to do with size.

These 2 guys brew tea differently than the rest. I cannot immitate the effect on another kyusus. Increasing leaf/water ratio, temperature, steeping time, or more agitation only give more bitter brew - not fuller body tea like these flat ones.
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LuckyMe
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Wed May 29, 2019 2:06 am

I would pick a hohin or kyusu for any Japanese tea over shiboridashi. They tend to get clogged easily due to the small leaves which makes brewing in them frustrating. Perhaps a very high quality gyokuro with little to no broken leaves would do better in a shibo.

BTW, I love my Sawa Houzan and Jade Leaf shibos and use them all the time for Chinese greens, kamairicha, oolongs, and other teas but avoid brewing Japanese green tea in them.
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Baisao
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Wed May 29, 2019 6:36 pm

@Tor, there could be all sorts of things happening between your horizontal vs flat kyusus other than the perceived freedom of leaves to expand more in one than the other. I'll iterate some of these here from what I feel is least to most affecting.

1) As noted elsewhere, vessel shape when there is an air gap seems to matter with teas steeped at much higher temperatures than gyokuro. I surmise this is because of an interaction of volatile aromatics with the upper inside of the teapots. This seems to me to be an unlikely candidate for what you are observing since gyokuro is brewed at a temperature well below the temperature where this phenomenon has been noticed. The hotter the tea the more volatile the aromatics.

2) While the volume may never change, the surface area of a shiboridashi is greater than a houhin. Perhaps there the surface of the liquor is undergoing a change with exposure to oxygen.

3) No two teapots will produce the same tea. I have kyusu made by the same person, from the same clay, of the same volume & shape, and some within the same era: each kyusu produces a unique brew even with the same parameters. It is more subtle with some than others. This one-of-a-kind nature of pottery is something I enjoy about collecting ceramic teaware.

4) As noted in @Victoria's experiment, there are more particulates in the horizontal sample than the vertical sample. Some of this is due to settling of the mixture but some of it is also do to the secondary filtration of the tea is the liquor is strained through leaves that have collected at the spout. If the tea has more particulates it will contribute to a fuller body.

Cheers
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