Re: Yamada family seal chops and signatures
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:01 pm
Forgive me if this isn’t the right thread for this. But here’s some marks on pots allegedly from Makoto, but I’m skeptical. Any help confirming or denying?
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Yes, the seals look to be Jozan II : Mr. Makoto Yamada (1897-1961). I think @pedant has a few pieces with similar chops.
This link includes a nice summary of the Yamada family tree, until Jozan III.Quentin wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:06 pmBottom a picture:
https://chano-yu.com/antique-vermilion- ... ozan-3905/
There's an additional seal, not seen here, that is seen on both Jozan I and III. I have the impression that reuse of seals was common in the family.Bok wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:10 pmThis link includes a nice summary of the Yamada family tree, until Jozan III.Quentin wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:06 pmBottom a picture:
https://chano-yu.com/antique-vermilion- ... ozan-3905/
Not sure how accurate the information is, but I was told the chop above (four characters), has also been used by Jozan I.
Edit: also first time I ever see mentioned who came before JozanI !
The inscription on the top pot is different in character than the inscription on my example. I read that he had a couple of people he favored for inscribing his pots (perhaps one for calligraphy and another for pictorial work). I mention this because I would have been able to say with certainty that it was Jozan II if the style matched. I've been weighing different elements in my head for a few minutes here and my gut says this is Jozan III. Color, blobby styling, the way the knob is attached, and something about the inscription... all of this leans me towards Jozan III. But it is close since there are so few Jozan II pots to compare it to.Quentin wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:06 pmBaisao Here’s a link to the actual pots I was thinking about buying if that helps. I don’t own anything pre Jozan iii so I’m a little out of my depth, although I’d love to pick up something genuine.
Top picture: https://www.trocadero.com/stores/Dragon ... a-Jozan-II
Bottom a picture:
https://chano-yu.com/antique-vermilion- ... ozan-3905/
It is a shame that cultural barriers make a straight-forward communication with the Yamada family difficult, otherwise I could be as easy as to just ask the remaining family members who have probably a much better idea of what is what... oh Japan, beautiful country, but so many societal codes.
I think I definitely agree with you that the pot shape and style remind me more of Jozan iii, but after looking at some of my teapot pictures I think the tomobako might be the biggest clue. The signature matches really well with this Makoto that came directly from the Yamada family according to a trusted seller.Baisao wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:04 amThe inscription on the top pot is different in character than the inscription on my example. I read that he had a couple of people he favored for inscribing his pots (perhaps one for calligraphy and another for pictorial work). I mention this because I would have been able to say with certainty that it was Jozan II if the style matched. I've been weighing different elements in my head for a few minutes here and my gut says this is Jozan III. Color, blobby styling, the way the knob is attached, and something about the inscription... all of this leans me towards Jozan III. But it is close since there are so few Jozan II pots to compare it to.Quentin wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:06 pmBaisao Here’s a link to the actual pots I was thinking about buying if that helps. I don’t own anything pre Jozan iii so I’m a little out of my depth, although I’d love to pick up something genuine.
Top picture: https://www.trocadero.com/stores/Dragon ... a-Jozan-II
Bottom a picture:
https://chano-yu.com/antique-vermilion- ... ozan-3905/
I would take a hard pass on the bottom pot. The lid has been glued together sloppily and has been abused in other ways. I might offer $50 just as a curio. Could be I or II based upon shape. The clay is correct for either. The spout is like Jozan II but the handle's construction looks different from what I have seen.
It would be great to have definitive answers for these.
visual impression of the pot itself: jozan1 or jozan2. i would never guess that this is jozan3.Quentin wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:06 pmTop picture: https://www.trocadero.com/stores/Dragon ... a-Jozan-II
no commentQuentin wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:06 pmBottom a picture:
https://chano-yu.com/antique-vermilion- ... ozan-3905/
you'd better believe that next time i go to tokoname, i'm going to try to meet yamada sou (assuming he lives there). i would prepare printouts of pots and tomobako and ask him questions. would that be rude? lolBok wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:45 amIt is a shame that cultural barriers make a straight-forward communication with the Yamada family difficult, otherwise I could be as easy as to just ask the remaining family members who have probably a much better idea of what is what... oh Japan, beautiful country, but so many societal codes.