Yamada family seal chops and signatures

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Quentin
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Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:01 pm

Forgive me if this isn’t the right thread for this. But here’s some marks on pots allegedly from Makoto, but I’m skeptical. Any help confirming or denying?
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Victoria
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Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:36 pm

Quentin wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:01 pm
Forgive me if this isn’t the right thread for this. But here’s some marks on pots allegedly from Makoto, but I’m skeptical. Any help confirming or denying?

Image
Image
Yes, the seals look to be Jozan II : Mr. Makoto Yamada (1897-1961). I think @pedant has a few pieces with similar chops.
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Quentin
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Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:47 pm

Ah. Well thanks for the input, you’re definitely more knowledgeable than I am! Now I feel bad for overly scrutinizing Chano-yu, I’ve just never purchased through them before so I was unduly suspicious.
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Baisao
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Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:50 pm

@Quentin, I have seen the top one on Minoru Yamada (Jozan III) pots and is listed on a Japanese pottery website as belonging to him. I suppose it is also possible that it was used by Makoto Yamada.

The bottom pic shows Yamada family seals but I haven’t seen them before in this exact form.
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Quentin
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Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:06 pm

@Baisao Here’s a link to the actual pots I was thinking about buying if that helps. I don’t own anything pre Jozan iii so I’m a little out of my depth, although I’d love to pick up something genuine.

Top picture: https://www.trocadero.com/stores/Dragon ... a-Jozan-II

Bottom a picture:
https://chano-yu.com/antique-vermilion- ... ozan-3905/
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Bok
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Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:10 pm

Quentin wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:06 pm
Bottom a picture:
https://chano-yu.com/antique-vermilion- ... ozan-3905/
This link includes a nice summary of the Yamada family tree, until Jozan III.

Not sure how accurate the information is, but I was told the chop above (four characters), has also been used by Jozan I.

Edit: also first time I ever see mentioned who came before JozanI !
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Baisao
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Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:00 pm

Bok wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:10 pm
Quentin wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:06 pm
Bottom a picture:
https://chano-yu.com/antique-vermilion- ... ozan-3905/
This link includes a nice summary of the Yamada family tree, until Jozan III.

Not sure how accurate the information is, but I was told the chop above (four characters), has also been used by Jozan I.

Edit: also first time I ever see mentioned who came before JozanI !
There's an additional seal, not seen here, that is seen on both Jozan I and III. I have the impression that reuse of seals was common in the family.
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Baisao
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Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:04 am

Quentin wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:06 pm
Baisao Here’s a link to the actual pots I was thinking about buying if that helps. I don’t own anything pre Jozan iii so I’m a little out of my depth, although I’d love to pick up something genuine.

Top picture: https://www.trocadero.com/stores/Dragon ... a-Jozan-II

Bottom a picture:
https://chano-yu.com/antique-vermilion- ... ozan-3905/
The inscription on the top pot is different in character than the inscription on my example. I read that he had a couple of people he favored for inscribing his pots (perhaps one for calligraphy and another for pictorial work). I mention this because I would have been able to say with certainty that it was Jozan II if the style matched. I've been weighing different elements in my head for a few minutes here and my gut says this is Jozan III. Color, blobby styling, the way the knob is attached, and something about the inscription... all of this leans me towards Jozan III. But it is close since there are so few Jozan II pots to compare it to.

I would take a hard pass on the bottom pot. The lid has been glued together sloppily and has been abused in other ways. I might offer $50 just as a curio. Could be I or II based upon shape. The clay is correct for either. The spout is like Jozan II but the handle's construction looks different from what I have seen.

It would be great to have definitive answers for these.
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Bok
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Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:45 am

Baisao wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:04 am
It would be great to have definitive answers for these.
It is a shame that cultural barriers make a straight-forward communication with the Yamada family difficult, otherwise I could be as easy as to just ask the remaining family members who have probably a much better idea of what is what... oh Japan, beautiful country, but so many societal codes.
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Quentin
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Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:10 am

Baisao wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:04 am
Quentin wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:06 pm
Baisao Here’s a link to the actual pots I was thinking about buying if that helps. I don’t own anything pre Jozan iii so I’m a little out of my depth, although I’d love to pick up something genuine.

Top picture: https://www.trocadero.com/stores/Dragon ... a-Jozan-II

Bottom a picture:
https://chano-yu.com/antique-vermilion- ... ozan-3905/
The inscription on the top pot is different in character than the inscription on my example. I read that he had a couple of people he favored for inscribing his pots (perhaps one for calligraphy and another for pictorial work). I mention this because I would have been able to say with certainty that it was Jozan II if the style matched. I've been weighing different elements in my head for a few minutes here and my gut says this is Jozan III. Color, blobby styling, the way the knob is attached, and something about the inscription... all of this leans me towards Jozan III. But it is close since there are so few Jozan II pots to compare it to.

I would take a hard pass on the bottom pot. The lid has been glued together sloppily and has been abused in other ways. I might offer $50 just as a curio. Could be I or II based upon shape. The clay is correct for either. The spout is like Jozan II but the handle's construction looks different from what I have seen.

It would be great to have definitive answers for these.
I think I definitely agree with you that the pot shape and style remind me more of Jozan iii, but after looking at some of my teapot pictures I think the tomobako might be the biggest clue. The signature matches really well with this Makoto that came directly from the Yamada family according to a trusted seller.
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Baisao
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Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:08 am

@Quentin, the signatures do closely resemble each other. Note that the pot in your latest example also resembles Jozan II in style.
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pedant
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Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:19 pm

Quentin wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:06 pm
Top picture: https://www.trocadero.com/stores/Dragon ... a-Jozan-II
visual impression of the pot itself: jozan1 or jozan2. i would never guess that this is jozan3.

inscription: this could be valuable in IDing the pot. if the carver can be ID'd, an expert in yamada trivia should be able to say which carvers each jozan worked with. unfortunately, i am not such an expert.

main stamp on bottom of pot: consistent with jozan2 but not exclusively used by jozan2.

tomobako: this is the most telling part for me personally. imo, this is the handwriting of jozan2 rather than jozan1.

assuming that is the pot's original tomobako, i think this is by jozan2.
Quentin wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:06 pm
Bottom a picture:
https://chano-yu.com/antique-vermilion- ... ozan-3905/
no comment
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pedant
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Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:29 pm

i hope that no one takes what i said in my previous post as some kind of authoritative info. everything i "know" is based on unconfirmed data points and assumptions even though i personally feel confident in my answer.
Bok wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:45 am
Baisao wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:04 am
It would be great to have definitive answers for these.
It is a shame that cultural barriers make a straight-forward communication with the Yamada family difficult, otherwise I could be as easy as to just ask the remaining family members who have probably a much better idea of what is what... oh Japan, beautiful country, but so many societal codes.
you'd better believe that next time i go to tokoname, i'm going to try to meet yamada sou (assuming he lives there). i would prepare printouts of pots and tomobako and ask him questions. would that be rude? lol
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Quentin
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Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:16 pm

I don’t think it’d be rude as long as you didn’t just arrive at his home and spring it in him haha. I’ve read some interviews from Jozan iv, so I’d imagine they are used to to answering questions like that. Heck, as long as they don’t dislike westerners using their stuff then I’m sure clearing up confusion would be welcomed.
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Quentin
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Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:19 pm

@pedant
Also thanks for the input, I’m inclined to agree with you. I also realized after I posted before that the lid was polished, and it made me think that there’s almost no way it’s a Jozan iii.
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