Japanese Clays and Techniques

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Yoroko
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Sun Mar 07, 2021 2:22 am

olivierd wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:50 am
I second a neutral ustensil for Gyokuro. The critical factor for that tea is the temperature. Even a shiboradashi would make the brew harder. A very thin wall Kyusu fired in reduction is a fine one. I tend to believe, right or wrong, that you don't want to change the tea taste when it's down to Japanese green teas. The tetsubin does the job of mellowing the water which is enough to get full body and aromas. One funny thing about Gyokuro is that it is supposed to be drunk fresh, I have 2004 Gyokuro that imo surpasses any current one. Equally matcha is supposed to be drunk fresh, but 3-4 days of oxydation does a good job of mellowing the possible bitterness and turning it more creamy and umami regardless of low or ceremony grade, usucha or koicha grade.
Gyokuro has a longer shelf life than, for example, Sencha; but keeping it for a couple of years sounds like something I'm about to try after reading your post. I am curious.
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Baisao
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Sun Mar 07, 2021 2:50 am

@Yoroko - it is good to have someone around with experience making pottery. I’ve studied it for a couple of decades but have zero talent.

Based upon your interest in clays you may be interested in the kettles made by Takashi Ichikawa. They are unique and have a the greatest effect on tea of any vessel I’ve used. More so than the teapots themselves.
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wave_code
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Sun Mar 07, 2021 4:59 am

everyone seems to love the Ichikawa kettles and they seem kinda tricky to even get your hands on at the moment due to demand. I'm really curious about them - seem like a great alternative to a tetsubin. Do they get on well with an electric burner as well as with charcoal?
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Balthazar
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Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:11 am

wave_code wrote:
Sun Mar 07, 2021 4:59 am
alternative to a tetsubin
First rule of teaware acquisition disorder: There are no alternatives. Gotta catch em all, and the "all" is a moving target.

(Jokes aside, I'm curious to hear @Baisao's reply to your question.)
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Baisao
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Sun Mar 07, 2021 2:07 pm

wave_code wrote:
Sun Mar 07, 2021 4:59 am
everyone seems to love the Ichikawa kettles and they seem kinda tricky to even get your hands on at the moment due to demand. I'm really curious about them - seem like a great alternative to a tetsubin. Do they get on well with an electric burner as well as with charcoal?
I don’t have experience with water from a tetsubin other than they are heavy (!) when filled and feel too clumsy for me to use.

The Ichikawa kettles do great on electric, coal, and alcohol burners. I’ve used all of these and detect no difference between the three methods.

Mine holds about a liter. It takes 20 min to come to a boil on its own so I instead boil in a regular stainless steel kettle and transfer the water to the Ichikawa kettle, then place it on an electric brazier.

There’s no difference in flavor from boiling the water entirely in the Ichikawa kettle and the hybrid method I use. Of course ceramic kettles must have water in them when over heat or they might crack.

They need to be broken in. I boiled zairai in it twice before using. I then boiled water in it every day for 30 days before it was satisfactorily broken in. It changed literally overnight from disappointingly muting to thoroughly amazing. The water from it is remarkably smooth and sweet. The texture lasts regardless of the teapot used.

It is a very porous clay and glaze. The kettle will feel moist if you let water sit it in. I think this is one of the reasons it takes so long to break in.

I wouldn’t consider being without an Ichikawa kettle now. It’s transforming but entirely for the betterment of the tea. That is to say, once broken in it doesn’t change the tea but makes the body of the water better.
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Yoroko
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Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:22 am

Baisao wrote:
Sun Mar 07, 2021 2:50 am
Based upon your interest in clays you may be interested in the kettles made by Takashi Ichikawa. They are unique and have a the greatest effect on tea of any vessel I’ve used. More so than the teapots themselves.
The kettle sounds very promising. Thank you very much! A brilliant alternative to a tetsubin. I haven't found a shop on the internet that sells one; just various pots and storage vessels from Ichigawa-san. I have interest. You know a dealer? Either here or as a private message. Thank you.
Baisao wrote:
Sun Mar 07, 2021 2:07 pm
The Ichikawa kettles do great on electric, coal, and alcohol burners. I’ve used all of these and detect no difference between the three methods.
(...)
There’s no difference in flavor from boiling the water entirely in the Ichikawa kettle and the hybrid method I use. Of course ceramic kettles must have water in them when over heat or they might crack.

They need to be broken in. I boiled zairai in it twice before using. I then boiled water in it every day for 30 days before it was satisfactorily broken in. It changed literally overnight from disappointingly muting to thoroughly amazing. The water from it is remarkably smooth and sweet. The texture lasts regardless of the teapot used.
Another 2 questions: if an alcohol burner is OK, will it work on my gas stove? I hope so. Medium flame is maybe also a good idea?
And to break the kettle in, it seems I can use any Japanese green tea of better quality.

And he's sure to be very cheap again - I'm just joking?
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Yoroko
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Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:49 am

Victoria wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:16 pm
(...)
A few other reduction/wood fired Yamada Sou and Taisuke Shiraiwa kyusu I have I’m still trying to figure out. After firing these are not black, more dark brown inside and outside, and ever so slightly porous. They are all over 120ml so are fine with sencha, and lightly roasted oolongs as well. Can’t really say if there is any effect on water or tea, I’m still wondering about that. So far I don’t use them with highly aromatic teas, they seem to be more about body.
It could be the clay, why the reduction fired kyusus are more dark brown than black; because wood fired reduction should correspond to carbonized reduction fire (covered with charcoal or rice husk) and burned under 1000°C (please scroll down to the last 1/3 of the article): https://hojotea.com.my/posts-177/

It is always the same clay: 1. Oxidation fired, 2. Reduction fired and 3. Carbonized reduction fired:
1 hojotea.com_Oxidation Fire.jpg
1 hojotea.com_Oxidation Fire.jpg (43 KiB) Viewed 8683 times
2 hojotea.com_Reduction Fire.jpg
2 hojotea.com_Reduction Fire.jpg (23.64 KiB) Viewed 8683 times
3 hojotea.com_Carbonized Reduction Fire.jpg
3 hojotea.com_Carbonized Reduction Fire.jpg (21.28 KiB) Viewed 8683 times
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Balthazar
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Mon Mar 08, 2021 12:15 pm

@Baisao: Any idea if it will work with induction? Not sure if there's enough ferromagnetic material in these kettles (I've read that only certain models of Lin's Ceramics kettles work).
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Baisao
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Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:36 pm

@Yoroko - I wouldn’t advise using a gas stove. A European friend did this and I was surprised by the amount of soot that accumulated on the bottom and sides of the kettle. The problem was cosmetic only. An alcohol burner won’t leave soot but some extra moisture that hurts nothing. He makes a white pitcher (chahai) that is affordable and gives similar results to the kettle as they use the same interior glaze.

@Balthazar - I don’t think it will work with an induction heater without a metal puck. There’s certainly not enough ferromagnetic material in the clay.

I wish I could point to a seller. It might be easier if you have contacts in Japan who can take care of the odd payment agreements they use.
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Yoroko
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Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:21 am

@Baisao I'm using propane instead of natural gas at home on my cooking field, it burns with less soot production. It takes a long time with an alcohol burner to heat something, that's why I only use it for fondue.
--> You mention an affordable white pitcher (chahai) - if I understand you correctly, this is like a Takashi Ichikawa's kettle? If yes, do you have a link?
And the Ichikawa kettle has also an interior glaze?

@Balthazar There are adapters for induction; I just looked it up 4 u at amazon US: "induction adapter plate", e.g. -->
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Baisao
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Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:39 am

Yoroko wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:21 am
Baisao I'm using propane instead of natural gas at home on my cooking field, it burns with less soot production. It takes a long time with an alcohol burner to heat something, that's why I only use it for fondue.
--> You mention an affordable white pitcher (chahai) - if I understand you correctly, this is like a Takashi Ichikawa's kettle? If yes, do you have a link?
And the Ichikawa kettle has also an interior glaze?
You should be fine with propane then since it is cleaner burning. His kettles can take a lot of direct heat.

Unfortunately, I don’t have links to his wares. I bought them about 3 years ago and he seems to mainly sell at gallery events. It’s a real pain in the neck finding someone who will sell you one but they are worth the hassle.

The pitcher won’t be exactly the same but if used as a chahai it would have a smoothing effect that is a good approximation. It is somewhat large. Both the pitcher and the kettle have a porous, cream-colored interior glaze.

I personally wasn’t impressed with his teapots. They are very beautiful and he designed them for gaoshan cha, but there are better teapots in general. I think all of his magic is in the kettles.
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Yoroko
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Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:55 am

Baisao wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:39 am
You should be fine with propane then since it is cleaner burning. His kettles can take a lot of direct heat.

Unfortunately, I don’t have links to his wares. I bought them about 3 years ago and he seems to mainly sell at gallery events. It’s a real pain in the neck finding someone who will sell you one but they are worth the hassle.

(...) Both the pitcher and the kettle have a porous, cream-colored interior glaze. (...) I think all of his magic is in the kettles.
Thanks a lot! Oh no, galleries only: I've found one in Kohoku, Nagahama, where he sold and hopefully is still selling. Do you maybe have his name in Japanese writing? That would help "advance the scavenger hunt". Addendum, just found out: 市川孝

I've to ask 3 more questions, you hooked me:
1. is the glaze really so porous, that the water can interact with the clay? (Reason for asking: glaze is more or less glass and glass is the least water-affecting material as far as I know). Or is there also some magic in the glaze?
2. Is it okay if I heat water once a day and then boil it in the kettle every time I make tea? Sometimes you mix both methods, as I've read (boil in the electric kettle, continue cooking in the kettle), but I'm not sure whether it would work that way.
3. What price I have to expect?
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Baisao
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Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:30 am

Yoroko wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:55 am
Baisao wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:39 am
You should be fine with propane then since it is cleaner burning. His kettles can take a lot of direct heat.

Unfortunately, I don’t have links to his wares. I bought them about 3 years ago and he seems to mainly sell at gallery events. It’s a real pain in the neck finding someone who will sell you one but they are worth the hassle.

(...) Both the pitcher and the kettle have a porous, cream-colored interior glaze. (...) I think all of his magic is in the kettles.
Thanks a lot! Oh no, galleries only: I've found one in Kohoku, Nagahama, where he sold and hopefully is still selling. Do you maybe have his name in Japanese writing? That would help "advance the scavenger hunt". Addendum, just found out: 市川孝

I've to ask 3 more questions, you hooked me:
1. is the glaze really so porous, that the water can interact with the clay? (Reason for asking: glaze is more or less glass and glass is the least water-affecting material as far as I know). Or is there also some magic in the glaze?
2. Is it okay if I heat water once a day and then boil it in the kettle every time I make tea? Sometimes you mix both methods, as I've read (boil in the electric kettle, continue cooking in the kettle), but I'm not sure whether it would work that way.
3. What price I have to expect?
1. Yes, the glaze really is that porous. It has a matte feel to it. It looks a bit like wedding cake icing. I can pour hot water into the pot and within minutes begin feeling moisture on the exterior. I have attached a photo of the glaze that is on the lid. It is pockmarked whereas the glaze inside the kettle isn't, otherwise it looks the same.

2. I think it will be necessary to make water in it for the first 30 days so boil away!

3. Prices vary. Expect $200 from Japan to twice that if from another country because of high demand.
Attachments
Pitcher
Pitcher
Ichikawa_Pitcher.PNG (483.4 KiB) Viewed 8596 times
Kettle Lid with glaze
Kettle Lid with glaze
Ichikawa_KettleLid.PNG (469.08 KiB) Viewed 8596 times
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Balthazar
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Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:16 am

Yoroko wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:21 am
Balthazar There are adapters for induction; I just looked it up 4 u at amazon US: "induction adapter plate", e.g. -->
Thanks for the suggestion. I'm trying to downsize my kitchen equipment, so even though I do find these kettles very interesting I'm probably not going to go through the hassle of getting one if that also means having to get an adapter plate :)
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Yoroko
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Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:19 am

Baisao wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:30 am
1. Yes, the glaze really is that porous. It has a matte feel to it. It looks a bit like wedding cake icing. I can pour hot water into the pot and within minutes begin feeling moisture on the exterior. I have attached a photo of the glaze that is on the lid. It is pockmarked whereas the glaze inside the kettle isn't, otherwise it looks the same.

2. I think it will be necessary to make water in it for the first 30 days so boil away!

3. Prices vary. Expect $200 from Japan to twice that if from another country because of high demand.
Thanks :D Your pictures are fabulous! I know that sort of Japanese ceramic with the "cake icing", but I don't remember the name. Looks so great! And even better: it works.
You know the kind of shudei he is using?
The price is okay for me for such a nice kettle; I'll try my luck in Japan: with transport, customs and Import-VAT it should be about $ 290.- (€ 244.-)! I'm in! Please wish me luck "to find the tea-kettle-grail".

@Balthazar I'm also downsizing. For every thing that comes in one has to go. Yes, this is going to be a "fun" one to get hold of :lol:
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