Hagi ware Absorption of Colour/Odor

Post Reply
absence
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:44 pm

Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:57 am

I understand that Hagi ware will change colour as it absorbs tea over time, and I've also seen warnings about absorbing strong aromas. I'm curious about how prominent this effect is. Yunomi are obviously meant for teas like sencha or hojicha, but does anyone have experience with darker teas, like black tea or shu pu'er? Will the cups colour more quickly, or even stain? There are Hagi ware coffee cups, but could you drink tea from one, or would it be ruined by coffee smell? If it makes a difference, I'm thinking about the modern "mass-produced" (by hand?) pieces you can buy in department stores in Japan for a few thousand yen, not antiques or one-offs by famous artists.
rdl
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:43 am

Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:32 pm

This isn't an answer but an observation. Of all the different Hagiyaki I own and use, your question depends on several factors. For example I have a cup that is almost like rakuyaki, very soft and absorbent. I am sure there would be dark staining from darker tea. Another two identical cups I use for houjicha, neither has crazing nor staining. It really depends on the glaze, as hagiyaki has general attributes but vary greatly.
My personal opinion is if you rinse a your cup with hot water with a gentle rubbing, the remaining tea stain will not influence the taste of the next tea. Maybe if the teas are at the ends of the fullness, body, spectrum, but I have not tested this and still feel after a good rinse there is no taste carryover. I have coffee cups made by Bertil Persson; I've not used them but they seem to have a more dense glaze. I don't see why they wouldn't be acceptable for tea if one prefered.
User avatar
debunix
Posts: 1812
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:27 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:53 am

I don't single out Hagi ware in considerations of what to drink from which vessel. I pay attention to the surface and the glaze for all my ceramic wares. Pieces with unglazed surface exposed inside the cup/bowl or with loose/overlapping/rapidly staining crackles are only used for C sinensis teas, or water, and I avoid even flavored teas (most floral/herbal additions) most of the time. I reach for the fully glazed pieces with minimal or very subtle/slow staining crackles for those. Those with no crackles or open unglazed surface in the cup/bowl are used for any & all drinks.

The Flower of Forgetfulness (Petr Novak/not Hagi) gets a steady diet of nothing but tea

Image

As does this Shira Hagi cup and it's twin by Mukuhara Kashun

Image

And this late much lamented yunomi by Shibuya Eiichi

Image

But this fully deeply wonderfully glazed Seigan blue bowl gets used for anything and everything, even bowls of fruit, cereal, soup, or stew--when I want a meal to be extra special (raspberries with cream are just so lovely against that deep blue!)

Image

Things like this Seigan cup with more subtle crackles sometimes get herbal or floral teas as well as C. sinensis, but not juices, milk, ginger tea with honey and lemon, etc.

Image
absence
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:44 pm

Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:29 pm

rdl wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:32 pm
I have coffee cups made by Bertil Persson; I've not used them but they seem to have a more dense glaze. I don't see why they wouldn't be acceptable for tea if one prefered.
I mean, if they've been used a lot for coffee, do they stain and/or pick up coffee aroma which will carry over to tea?
debunix wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:53 am
Pieces with [...] loose/overlapping/rapidly staining crackles are only used for C sinensis teas, or water
How rapid is "rapidly"? Do you find out by just using it for tea in the beginning, and keep an eye out for staining? Also, do you differ between types of (pure) tea? Some pu'ers have almost the same colour as coffee, while some whites nearly look like water, but I don't know if that directly transfers to the speed/colour of the staining. Lovely photos by the way!
User avatar
debunix
Posts: 1812
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:27 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:33 am

This is an example of a cup by shyrabbit that didn’t show crackles for a long time, and they’re still subtle:
A42DB301-4F9D-4321-88CD-1D2B054C9C18.jpeg
A42DB301-4F9D-4321-88CD-1D2B054C9C18.jpeg (224.35 KiB) Viewed 5594 times
I do use this cup for beverages besides tea.
rdl
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:43 am

Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:01 pm

l will try to clarify. First, any cup used for coffee and not washed well will accumulate coffee oils and so will certainly impart flavor on any liquid less strong than coffee. My point about the hagiyaki coffee cups is that they don't appear to craze or have a surface glaze for flavors to accumulate. Therefore, they would have a coffee taste if just rinsed, due to the oils over time, and I wouldn't recommend drinking tea from that cup. But if after the coffee they are washed, I don't see how any flavors would be left over to influence a cup of tea.
I am trying to fully grasp your initial question and hope I have given you some useful information. If not, I suggest you find a hagiyaki you like, as you are looking at affordable pieces, buy it and use it. Experiment and see what happens. There is nothing nicer than hagiyaki teaware
absence
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:44 pm

Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:47 am

rdl wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:01 pm
My point about the hagiyaki coffee cups is that they don't appear to craze or have a surface glaze for flavors to accumulate.
Thanks, that's interesting. I originally imagined all Hagi ware would behave in the same way, but this means that a yunomi that does craze will react to something like coffee in a different way, and perhaps stain quickly. Even if I don't intend to put coffee in a yunomi, it does sound like dark teas like shu pu'er or even black tea may be a bad idea as well.

Speaking of rinsing vs washing (with soap/detergent), is there any risk of a yunomi absorbing soap aroma? Should I just rinse, or use non-perfume soap, or is the contact with the soapy water too short for it to matter?
User avatar
debunix
Posts: 1812
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:27 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:46 am

I don't worry about accumulated flavor from tea in crazed glazes.....I figure it is is the same compounds whether from white, green, oolong, black, or puerh teas that get in there and oxidize and make the crackles appear dark. As long as it's from tea!

I use even my highly crazed snowflake glazes with any C sinensis tea and don't notice carry over as long as the cup has been well rinsed between sessions.

Image

I only limit the specific C sinensis teas I use with different cups based on thing like their shape and wall thickness and how much I am worried that starting straight with very hot water may increase the risk of a delicate cup like this one cracking

Image

or having my fingers scorched when a thin walled cup is fill of very hot water.
User avatar
eon-pu
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:07 am

Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:47 pm

My two cents on the topic... I tend to agree with what's been said thus far. I would not worry too much about carrying over flavors due to the typical thickness of Hagi glazes. I can see why one would hesitate with crackle glaze, but you are generally looking at very thin joints that may or may not penetrate the whole way through to the actual clay. Even with wider cracks, I am not convinced that the underlying clay remains as porous after firing as unglazed vessels. Like rdl said, a careful wash with very hot water should eliminate flavors, even if some of the pigment sticks to the cracks "aging" them over time. Would I pour milk coffee into an expensive chawan or a favorite sencha cup? Definitely not. But the reason has little to do with taste, and more with shape, ritual, and aesthetics.

For the record, I have a couple of Hagi pieces from Noutomi Naoko (the daughter of Noutomi Susumu). I have used them for pretty much everything from teas to liquors to food. And yes, even coffee. As well as giving them an occasional wash with dish soap. After several years of weekly use, they taste as pure to my palate as any glassware in my house, and look perfectly untarnished. So at least those works from the Noutomi kiln seem far more resilient than one might assume.
User avatar
Chip
Admin
Posts: 371
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:47 pm
Location: In the TeaCave atop Mt Fuji
Contact:

Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:33 am

Just my 2 Yen's worth.

Hagi-yaki is generally quite porous.

I once poured sake into a Seigan guinomi (I use guinomi much more than yunomi for sencha). The aroma remained EXTREMELY noticeable indefinitely rendering it unusable for tea.

It was an older Seigan blue, I honestly did not think it would absorb the sake since Seigan blue does not seem as porous as a lot of Hagi.

Wrong again!

In my experience, if you pour hot water into the Hagi prior to using, this will most likely reduce the amount of absorption, whatever the beverage.

But each piece is different.

Dish liquid or soap, never! Just finger wash with hot water to remove surface stains.
pepson
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2023 2:26 am
Location: Slovakia

Wed Feb 15, 2023 1:23 am

Hello.

I am brewing e.g. Yunnan Silver Needle (white tea), Duck Shit (roasted oolong), Dian Hong , Yunnan Pine Needle (red tea) in one hagi yaki and I have not seen any problem so far. As you can see in the picture, inside is full of micro cracks.
Attachments
IMG_20230214_162355.jpg
IMG_20230214_162355.jpg (270.51 KiB) Viewed 2467 times
Post Reply