Ode to the Kyusu

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Bok
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Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:33 am

Victoria wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:17 am
works well with LiShan/FuShouShan
Interesting that you mention them separately. For me all high mountain teas pretty much work the same way in their teapot affinity(with approx. processing), be it Lishan, Shanlinxi, Alishan or DYL, FSS etc. So far I have not come across a teapot that work with one high mountain, but not with another. Did you have this experience?
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Victoria
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Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:44 am

Bok wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:33 am
Victoria wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:17 am
works well with LiShan/FuShouShan
Interesting that you mention them separately. For me all high mountain teas pretty much work the same way in their teapot affinity(with approx. processing), be it Lishan, Shanlinxi, Alishan or DYL, FSS etc. So far I have not come across a teapot that work with one high mountain, but not with another. Did you have this experience?
I was just identifying greener oolong that I enjoy (LiShan/FuShouShan but could add DYL, Alishan etc) versus higher roasted oolong. I don’t use much Alishan, Shanlinxi, DYL. So just separating based on roasting levels.
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Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:30 am

I see! All clear now.
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Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:39 am

Bok wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:26 am
steanze wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:26 pm
If I had one dollar for every time someone said a clay is similar to zhuni ;)
So far I have heard this stated about Mumyoi and Shudei, although it was said that only the older more orangey clay has this properties (around Yamada Jozan III and previously, statement by Hojo). Again, only hearsay and not verified by myself! Maybe owners of these clays can lighten the dark?

Shudei has also been praised in the past by Kyarazen for its affinity with high mountain oolong.
Yes, it is also used in mainland to talk about modern hongni pots: saying that a particular type of modern hongni "performs like zhuni" is a quite typical marketing move in that context. That's why I became a bit allergic to it :D

Personally, I have not used the Sado Mumyoi clay, but almost every time I have heard this claim, it did not hold up. For example, I have a few shudei pots I enjoy, but I have never encountered a shudei that performs like zhuni. I disagree with Hojo's statement that Jozan III and earlier shudei performs like zhuni. At the same time, often this claim is made with the assumption that saying that it's "like zhuni" makes it better, while clay can be great even if it performs in different ways from zhuni. A clay does not need to be like zhuni to be awesome, and I happily use my shudei pots taking advantage of their different properties which to me make them a more interesting addition to the toolkit :)
Last edited by steanze on Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:06 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:40 am

Bok wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:30 pm
swordofmytriumph Any new pot will first be a bit muting and need some seasoning until it reaches full potential, some faster, some slower.
I heard that Mumyoi is performing very similar to Zhuni clay, so should not be muting, more close to porcelain and a good match for HM. Some on this forum have been hoarding them... ahem, you know who you are :mrgreen:
zhuni is not muting when new :)
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Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:13 pm

As promised, Mumyoi vs Nosaka notes.

Today I tried both of these against each other with a Li Shan, a Meishan, and a four seasons Bagushan.

Both pots make the tea much sweeter (to the point where it tastes like sugar was added) though the Mumyoi is sweeter than the Nosaka by far. The Mumyoi is shockingly sweet. It rounds the flavor more than the Nosaka, as well as making ramping up the body of the tea. Both pots increase the body, but the Mumyoi to a greater extent. The Mumyoi is eating the higher registry notes, and the Nosaka eats some of the lower ones (or else it increases the higher notes and leaves the lower ones, I can’t tell). I get slightly more complexity with the Nosaka than I do with the Mumyoi, probably because it doesn’t round the flavor as much.

In the end I’ve decided to use the Nosaka for the HM oolong. It has more complexity than the Mumyoi even though it isn’t seasoned yet (can only get better right?). Also, both pots made the tea sweet, but the Mumyoi made the tea sweeter than I could really enjoy, I found it almost cloying (that said I’m very sensitive to sweet). Plus, once the Nosaka pot is seasoned properly it should stop eating the lower notes, but I doubt The Mumyoi pot will ever stop making my tea overly sweet.

HM oolong is already really sweet, maybe I’ll try the Mumyoi with black tea next. I’m thinking maybe a black tea will balance out the overly sweet flavor that I get from it. If that doesn’t work out, I’ll try heavy roasted oolong.
Last edited by swordofmytriumph on Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Teachronicles
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Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:15 pm

swordofmytriumph wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:13 pm
As promised, Mumyoi vs Nosaka notes.

Today I tried both of these against each other with a Li Shan, a Meishan, and a four seasons Bagushan.

Both pots make the tea much sweeter (to the point where it tastes like sugar was added) though the Mumyoi is sweeter than the Nosaka by far. The Mumyoi is shockingly sweet. It rounds the flavor more than the Nosaka, as well as making ramping up the body of the tea. Both pots increase the body, but the Mumyoi to a greater extent. The Mumyoi is eating the higher registry notes, and the Nosaka eats some of the lower ones (or else it increases the higher notes and leaves the lower ones, I can’t tell). I get slightly more complexity with the Nosaka than I do with the Mumyoi, probably because it doesn’t round the flavor as much.

In the end I’ve decided to use the Nosaka for the HM oolong. It has more complexity than the Mumyoi even though it isn’t seasoned yet (can only get better right?). Also, both pots made the tea sweet, but the Mumyoi made the tea sweeter than I could really enjoy, I found it almost cloying (that said I’m very sensitive to sweet). Plus, once the Nosaka pot is seasoned properly it should stop eating the lower notes, but I dont ever see the Mumyoi pot not making my tea overly sweet.

I’m going to try the Mumyoi with black tea next. I’m thinking maybe a black tea will balance out the overly sweet flavor that I get from it. If that doesn’t work out, I’ll try heavy roasted oolong.
I was gna recommend heavy roasted oolong. If your into aged puer that might be a good candidate as well, extra body and increased sweetness would be nice for aged raw.
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Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:18 pm

Hm, yeah it might be a good idea. I sometimes drink young sheng. No often though because it’s hard to get sheng that isn’t bitter. Lol this could solve that.
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Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:35 pm

@Teachronicles
I have black reduction firing pots by Shimizu Ken. The most outstanding effect that I noticed with these pots is that they tend to enhence Japanese green teas’ umami flavor and slightly tame the bitterness.
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Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:53 pm

swordofmytriumph wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:13 pm
As promised, Mumyoi vs Nosaka notes.

Today I tried both of these against each other with a Li Shan, a Meishan, and a four seasons Bagushan.

Both pots make the tea much sweeter (to the point where it tastes like sugar was added) though the Mumyoi is sweeter than the Nosaka by far. The Mumyoi is shockingly sweet. It rounds the flavor more than the Nosaka, as well as making ramping up the body of the tea. Both pots increase the body, but the Mumyoi to a greater extent. The Mumyoi is eating the higher registry notes, and the Nosaka eats some of the lower ones (or else it increases the higher notes and leaves the lower ones, I can’t tell). I get slightly more complexity with the Nosaka than I do with the Mumyoi, probably because it doesn’t round the flavor as much.

In the end I’ve decided to use the Nosaka for the HM oolong. It has more complexity than the Mumyoi even though it isn’t seasoned yet (can only get better right?). Also, both pots made the tea sweet, but the Mumyoi made the tea sweeter than I could really enjoy, I found it almost cloying (that said I’m very sensitive to sweet). Plus, once the Nosaka pot is seasoned properly it should stop eating the lower notes, but I doubt The Mumyoi pot will ever stop making my tea overly sweet.

HM oolong is already really sweet, maybe I’ll try the Mumyoi with black tea next. I’m thinking maybe a black tea will balance out the overly sweet flavor that I get from it. If that doesn’t work out, I’ll try heavy roasted oolong.
Thanks for sharing this. Curious, for your comparison did you do it as a side by side comparison, using both pots at same time, plus adding a porcelain pot to compare against? Would be interesting for you to revisit this comparison in a week, after you’ve used them for a while, to see if you get similar results. Also, I find when doing a comparison letting a cup from each pot cool down really helps to taste full flavor profile.

Do you like sencha or other greener teas? maybe try those as well with Mumyoi pot.
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Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:43 pm

steanze wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:40 am
zhuni is not muting when new :)
Reminds me that I need to get that point on my wish-/checklist – a Zhuni pot... :oops:
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Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:39 am

Victoria wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:53 pm
Thanks for sharing this. Curious, for your comparison did you do it as a side by side comparison, using both pots at same time, plus adding a porcelain pot to compare against? Would be interesting for you to revisit this comparison in a week, after you’ve used them for a while, to see if you get similar results. Also, I find when doing a comparison letting a cup from each pot cool down really helps to taste full flavor profile.

Do you like sencha or other greener teas? maybe try those as well with Mumyoi pot.
I did a side by side blind comparison. I used identical cups, put a sticker on the bottom of one of them, and mixed them up till I couldn't remember which was which. After drinking each infusion I checked the bottom to see which one it was. I didn't use porcelain for comparison. The first tea I used, the Li Shan, it was my first high quality tea and I've drunk it regularly for years, so I didn't really need a gaiwan for comparison as I could taste it in my sleep :lol:. The Nosaka brought out the most complexity out of all the flavors I know that tea can bring to the table, and the mumyoi was overly sweet. Interestingly, the Li Shan displayed more variation between the two pots than the other two teas I tried.

The other two teas I tried, I only had tried the Meishan once, and never tried the Bagushan. I thought about using a gaiwan as comparison, but after thinking about it I decided that what I really wanted was to determine which one I just plain liked the best, without any other results clouding it. Plus, by then I was getting pretty full of tea. :lol:

In terms of the Meishan, both pots brought out the floral qualities and had a very smooth viscous mouthfeel, but the Mumyoi was again sweeter than the Nosaka, and the Nosaka brought out slightly more complexity. Specifically, in addition to the floral qualities it also brought out some of the vegetal qualities that weren't as present when tried with the Mumyoi.

In terms of the Bagushan, it was almost a draw in terms of complexity. This was the wildcard tea, I had never had it before and didn't do a comparison with a gaiwan. A couple of times I liked the Mumyoi more, others the Nosaka. But the trend of the Mumyoi making my tea overly sweet continued here as well, though to a much lesser extent than the other two teas I tried.

I tend to prefer Chinese greens over Japanese greens. I prefer to steep my greens in a gaiwan because I have more control. The pour time on the Mumyoi pot is longer, when at full capacity takes 15 seconds, which I find is too long for green.
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Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:36 pm

Súper interesting swordofmytriumph. Seems like your approach was thorough. Pretty funny that you are so sensitive to sweetness. Have not heard of Bagushan tea, another lightly oxidized/roasted high mountain oolong? Sheng might be a good fit with your Mumyoi pot.
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Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:04 pm

Well, I’m more sensitive to sweet than I used to be. I’m on a Keto diet and gave up most sugar. After about a month on the diet I started to become really sensitive to sweet, since I’m not used to eating sweets anymore.

As for the Baguashan...https://www.taiwanteacrafts.com/product ... olong-tea/

I haven’t tried it in a porcelain gaiwan yet, but with the Nosaka, it was like chewing on flower petals. Very strong floral, very tasty.

I’m trying the Mumyoi pot with my sheng now actually (drinking it while I write). It’s really good. Brings forward the fruity and flowery aspects. Takes a lot of the bitter away and the way it smooths the mouthfeel is very good. However, the longer pour time isn’t kind to it, amd it ends up becoming bitter much too fast. I’m thinking maybe I’ll try just using half the volume of the pot, I’ll try that tomorrow. My thinking is that this would be a really good clay for sheng provided that you used a smaller pot, so it wouldn’t take so long to pour. I’ll keep messing with it cause I really like it so far. Will report back tomorrow. :)
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Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:40 pm

@swordofmytriumph you can accelerate the pour by slightly lifting the lid with one finger while pouring. Attention you might need to practice that a bit, if you haven’t done it before.
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