When is Shudei No Longer Shudei

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Baisao
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Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:26 pm

mod edit:

at the suggestion of @Baisao and others, several posts from a TeaSwap listing were broken off into a new thread to preserve and continue a discussion about shudei and mayake.

some context:

a Yamada Sou Mayake Kyusu that was for sale by @AozoraE:

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AozoraE wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:16 pm
DailyTX wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:42 pm
I would have adopted if it’s shudei clay. I agree with others, it’s a good price given you don’t have to worry about currency exchange and tax if you are living in a county aside from Asia
Technically it is shudei, but just woodfired!
I've honestly never liked the bright-red color of shudei pots and so I've sort of shied away from purchasing any made by Sou or anyone else.
Maybe if I can get past the color I'll give one a shot someday.
AozoraE wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:58 pm
DailyTX wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:42 pm
I had no idea lol, I am very new into Japanese tea ware. Can I trouble you to take some photos of the inside for me please? :)
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Hopefully those give you a bit of an idea of what the inside looks like. You wouldn't be able to tell its shudei from looking at it on the inside. The only way you would be able to tell is from looking at the bit of red accents that you can see all over the outside of the pot that were left uncovered by natural glaze. If you're looking for shudei for its effects on tea, you ought to look for shudei that has been fired in a electric or gas kiln. Reason being is that you're not going to get see much of a different in tea brewed in a wood fired pot vs something like porcelain or glass. Wood fired pots are known for having a more neutral effect on tea and therefore are going to act a bit differently from an un-glazed pot fired in a conventional kiln.
Bok wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:10 pm
AozoraE wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:16 pm
Technically it is shudei, but just woodfired!
...
I am 100% with you on that one! It took me ages to find a Shudei claypot that I liked (I wanted one for comparison purposes mostly). I found that the older Shudei (more orange) is nicer. Although it is real nice to the touch, very smooth and wet. I think what turned me off is this smoothness paired with the rough unfinished style of the later Yamadas, which in my taste doesn't go so well together – But, it is still something else if you ever hold one in your hands! Kind of almost converted my opinion, it is much nicer in person than what it often looks like on pictures.

This is another example of wood fired shudei. The red area is where oxidative gasses and carbon we’re unable to transform the clay.
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pedant
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Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:16 pm

Baisao wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:26 pm
This is another example of wood fired shudei. The red area is where oxidative gasses and carbon we’re unable to transform the clay.
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Imo it looks like it was actually ground there revealing the non-reduced clay below. I say this despite knowing that yamada fam isn't really into grinding, so I'm probably wrong.
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Tor
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Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:16 am

How can we call the oxygen reduced fired clay ‘shudei’? It doesn’t matter if it’s been fired in a gas, electric, or wood fired kiln. If the surface of the pottery doesn’t get oxygen, it is not shudei.
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Baisao
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Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:29 am

Hi @pedant- I don’t think this is ground but I understand why you would think so. This is from Taisuke Shiraiwa. I have other pieces from him where he deliberately allowed part of the clay to darken and other parts to become red. The red parts that are most protected, such as a tea caddy lid with another lid covering it, do not have a luster of the less protected parts.
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Last edited by Baisao on Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Baisao
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Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:45 am

Tor wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:16 am
How can we call the oxygen reduced fired clay ‘shudei’? It doesn’t matter if it’s been fired in a gas, electric, or wood fired kiln. If the surface of the pottery doesn’t get oxygen, it is not shudei.
Of course shudei refers to the crimson color of the fired clay, but what is the name for the same clay when it is black/brown from reduction firing?

* (I was reading about reduction firing earlier today and apparently it is much more complicated than a lack of oxygen but we can simplify here since most of us aren’t chemist. I just dug up the link if you are interested: https://ceramicartsnetwork.org/daily/fi ... g-process/)
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Baisao
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Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:04 am

@pedant - I stand corrected on that lid. I went and took another look at the pot and found a raised red dribble surrounded by reduced clay: the lid was ground. Taisuke plays with reduction/oxygen on the same pieces so I assumed this was an artifact of his firing. Here is the detail I referred to:
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Tor
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Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:09 am

Baisao wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:45 am
Of course shudei refers to the crimson color of the fired clay, but what is the name for the same clay when it is black/brown from reduction firing?
I heard some people called it shidei, but mostly they referred to Banko clay.
AozoraE
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Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:56 am

Tor wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:16 am
How can we call the oxygen reduced fired clay ‘shudei’? It doesn’t matter if it’s been fired in a gas, electric, or wood fired kiln. If the surface of the pottery doesn’t get oxygen, it is not shudei.
From my experience, even if the clay has become black or brown from firing in reduction, potters/merchants in Japanese would still probably call something like baisao's caddy as shudei, but they may include something like, "shudei youhen" to be more specific in describing how it actually looks. Sometimes you'll see shudei that's been fired in reduction and is completely black called, black clay (kuro ni) or youhen, or sometimes they'll even just call it plain shudei!.

In my opinion, I don't believe there really is a systematic way of deciding what to call it. As long as you're able to communicate that the clay is from Tokoname(which basically shudei implies) and what the actual fired ceramic looks like, I think that's all that really matters in a lot of cases :) Just my opinion, though.
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Baisao
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Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:59 am

Tor wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:09 am
Baisao wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:45 am
Of course shudei refers to the crimson color of the fired clay, but what is the name for the same clay when it is black/brown from reduction firing?
I heard some people called it shidei, but mostly they referred to Banko clay.
Thanks for that. I took a look at what Florent had to say about it and it seems Banko is kind of an appellation of origin (like Hagi) and shidei is clay that fires purple. If I understand correctly: all Banko is shidei but not all shidei is Banko.

I’ve skimmed over Banko for years and I’m a bit ashamed I never looked into it.
AozoraE
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Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:00 am

Tor wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:09 am
I don't know what pots they were referring to exactly, but generally shidei only refers to banko pots that are reduction fired and made from clay in or around Yokkaichi.
Maybe they were mistaken in describing the pot(s) as shidei?
AozoraE
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Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:27 am

Baisao wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:45 am

I have seen pots that were wood fired or were made from clay not made from the local clay still being referred to as 万古焼 (banko ware) seemingly only because the potter who made them worked in Yokkachi identified themselves as a "Banko ware potter". Since Banko ware refers specifically to a geographic area like you mentioned, as long as its made within Yokkachi, I believe any ceramic ware made there could be called Banko ware if one wished. Most people in Japan associate Yokkachi with ceramic cooking pots for hotpot, and those come in every color imaginable but those still nonetheless are still called Banko-ware. As long as whatever you're making is traditionally(or sometimes not) associated with the region, as long as you are making your ceramic wares there or are part of the ceramic industry, it would all still be considered Banko-ware "(or in the case of Tokoname, Tokoname-ware).

Again, just in my opinion :D
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Chip
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Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:35 pm

A little late to this party ... I am pleased to see the value increasing of all Yamada Sou kyusu!

Relevant to the rabbit trail regarding shudei &/or mayake. What is 100% proper? I really do not know.

However ... submitted for your consideration ... here are 2 Yamada Sou mayake kyusu. Occasionally, one is available that exhibits its shudei roots ... both inside and out. I am guessing placement in the kiln is a logical explanation.

Another, I could make an argument that the clays used are different. The more shudei kyusu being Tokoname and the more mayake kyusu possibly being Shigaraki or other origin. There subtle differences, and Toro thought his mayake might be Shigaraki.

I apologize for the bad lighting, but I wanted to post. Again, these are both mayake kyusu by Yamada Sou.

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pedant
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Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:06 pm

Chip wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:35 pm
Relevant to the rabbit trail regarding shudei &/or mayake. What is 100% proper? I really do not know.

Image

hey, i remember that yohen kyusu on the left! i almost bought it back in feb 2019! very nice. i'm glad a friend has it. :mrgreen:

idk, mayake is a technique, and shudei is a material. you can wood fire anything.
imo, being more descriptive is better, so, for example, i'd call that one on the left shudei, yohen, and mayake.
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Chip
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Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:35 pm

pedant wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:06 pm
Chip wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:35 pm
Relevant to the rabbit trail regarding shudei &/or mayake. What is 100% proper? I really do not know.

Image

hey, i remember that yohen kyusu on the left! i almost bought it back in feb 2019! very nice. i'm glad a friend has it. :mrgreen:

idk, mayake is a technique, and shudei is a material. you can wood fire anything.
imo, being more descriptive is better, so, for example, i'd call that one on the left shudei, yohen, and mayake.
I do recall Toru replying that several others were interested in purchasing that kyusu ... but I was first. :mrgreen:

Interesting thought and yet mayake adds "material" as well.

Funny, I just never thought of calling his "olive" mayake kyusu "shudei" ... just never knew if they were shudei. And as I mentioned, Toru thought they might be Shiggy ... as well as his Ao kyusu.

However, this yohen, mayake kyusu is certainly shudei [Edit] and seemingly Tokoname. So perhaps all his "olive" Mayake are Tokoname as well ... however his Aoyu (blue glazed) mayake appear to be Shigaraki.
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Baisao
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Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:07 am

From another thread we discussed that when a clay that produces shudei in a oxidative kiln changes to Banko or shidei when fired in a reduction kiln.

This alone can be expanded upon significantly as some teaware exhibit characteristics of both shudei and Banko depending upon their placement within the kiln.

Mumyoi (from Sado Island) looks a lot like shudei but gives tea a different character than shudei from Tokoname.

I have had “shudei” from Hokkaido that resembles mumyoi in the character it gives tea yet looks like shudei from Tokoname, only more orange than red.

This begs the following questions:

1) must shudei come from Tokoname and nowhere else?

2) if #1 is No, then what makes mumyoi different than shudei (barring the affect on tea)?

3) What should the red clay of Hokkaido be called, if not shudei or mumyoi (in the literal meaning of the word, “unknown”)?
Last edited by pedant on Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: mod edit: added link
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