Determining the right size kyusu pot

Vanenbw
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Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:08 pm

My first Kyusu pot, which I recently purchased, is 360ml. Initially I was filling it up and brewing 360ml of sencha to drink in one shot (usually out of a 180ml cup, filled up to about 130-150ml). So I would drink a full two cups and whatever was left over in the last cup, which naturally was a little bitter since I it was steeping the whole time.

Now I'm learning how to properly brew sencha. If I want a larger cup, I usually drink out of my 10oz cup, pouring in about 8oz of water. I guess the kyusu is okay for that size, perhaps still a little overkill. But when I'm in the mood to sip tea from my porcelain cup (approximately 180ml), I usually pour in 150ml to 175ml of water.

I would like to purchase a small pot for brewing smaller servings. Now this is not too small, but I do have a a set of 100ml porcelain cups being shipped to me. I was considering this 120ml kyusu from Sazen (https://www.sazentea.com/en/products/p5 ... small.html), but I'm not sure if there is enough room for the leaves to expand if I am brewing 100 ml. So that is one consideration.

But if I did want to brew 150-175 ml, what size kyusu would you recommend? For that amount, I'm wondering if 200ml is good enough. Here is another Sazen pot I was eyeing for slightly larger brews: https://www.sazentea.com/en/products/p6 ... kyusu.html.
faj
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Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:46 pm

Vanenbw wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:08 pm
I do have a a set of 100ml porcelain cups being shipped to me. I was considering this 120ml kyusu from Sazen (https://www.sazentea.com/en/products/p5 ... small.html)
I really am not an expert and will not make teapot recommendations, but please allow me to share a few thoughts.

The first thing I would say is : it depends how your 100ml cups and 120ml kyusu are measured. If the kyusu is 120ml full to the brim, it will yield less than 120ml of tea, for sure. How much will depend on the tea, how many previous infusions, etc.

I do have a couple of teapots that are between 110ml and 120ml (full capacity without leaves) and I also have 100ml cups (full to the brim, so the usable capacity is less), and I use them together with various teas. Long story short : this all fits together rather well. I never have more tea than fits in the cups, sometimes a few more milliliters would even be nice.
Vanenbw wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:08 pm
I'm not sure if there is enough room for the leaves to expand if I am brewing 100 ml. So that is one consideration.
Well, the size of the fully expanded leaves (for a given tea) depends mainly (only?) on the amount of leaves. If the expanded leaves take up 150ml and you want to infuse 100ml of tea, the leaves are not going to be covered by water, no matter what the size of the teapot is, unless you compress them. If you want to compress them, you are better with a small teapot. I would therefore say that if your intent is to allow for the highest leaf-to-water ratio by compressing the leaves once they are expanded, you actually should choose a small pot.
Vanenbw
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Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:13 am

Interesting. Sounds like I'd probably make it, but then again it might be nice to have a slightly larger kyusu if I do want to brew slightly larger cups, like 150ml. If I purchase a 120ml, I'm limited to drinking only smaller cups of tea, and I'm not even sure 100mls would brew that well in a 120. No rush on making a decision. I still have my 360ml kyusu pot.

Thank you for the feedback.
faj
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Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:33 am

Vanenbw wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:13 am
Interesting. Sounds like I'd probably make it, but then again it might be nice to have a slightly larger kyusu if I do want to brew slightly larger cups, like 150ml.
Well, there are reasons (or excuses) why people tend to accumulate many teapots... :)
Vanenbw wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:13 am
If I purchase a 120ml, I'm limited to drinking only smaller cups of tea, and I'm not even sure 100mls would brew that well in a 120.
It all depends what you want to drink. If you take interest in teas that are more expensive and want to infuse them at a high water-to-leaf ratio, 100ml or 200ml might become a very big cup. Say for instance, you infuse gyokuro costing 1 dollar per gram, and want to use a ratio of 6g for 100ml. Would you want to use $12 of leaf to make 200ml? Some people might mind the cost or experience ill effects from so much tea at once.

Personally, being relatively new to tea (and even more so teapots), and because I drink tea mostly alone, my approach is to purchase small teapots first: they are cheaper (or at least less expensive), take up less room in my cupboard, and can be used for high water-to-leaf ratio sessions. Then, if/when I find clay/tea pairings that to me are worth, and if I want to brew larger amounts, I would get larger pots.
Vanenbw
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Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:15 pm

Good points. I was asking myself what was the value of buying such small kyusu pots when they seem so limited, but I understand that they are perfect for some teas, like gyokuro. If you are drinking small quantities of a given tea, 50-80ml might be all you are drinking. You wouldn't need a large kyusu if you were brewing for yourself.
@faj wrote:
The first thing I would say is : it depends how your 100ml cups and 120ml kyusu are measured. If the kyusu is 120ml full to the brim, it will yield less than 120ml of tea, for sure. How much will depend on the tea, how many previous infusions, etc.
I always assumed measurements were to the top of the cup of kyusu pot. But today my "100ml" porcelain cups arrived from Japan, and for the fun of it, I filled it to the top, then dumped the water in a measuring cup. It's 150ml. I'm guessing the 100ml measurement is an estimate of how much will be poured back into the cup after the water has been absorbed by the tea leaves. I don't know for sure, I'm just going on an assumption here.

So, in fact, a 120ml kyusu would not suit my needs, as my cup--filled to the top--would hold 150ml of water.

I definitely can see finding reasons (or excuses) to buy multiple kyusu pots, or any tea pots. One size does not necessarily fit everything.
faj
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Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:29 pm

Vanenbw wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:15 pm
I'm guessing the 100ml measurement is an estimate of how much will be poured back into the cup after the water has been absorbed by the tea leaves. I don't know for sure, I'm just going on an assumption here.
The small kyusus and cups I purchased were advertised at a volume very close to their actual, full-to-the-brim volume. I guess it depends on the vendor or manufacturer.
Vanenbw wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:15 pm
I definitely can see finding reasons (or excuses) to buy multiple kyusu pots, or any tea pots. One size does not necessarily fit everything.
Wait until you start considering clays in addition to size. As well as the interaction of clay, size, shape, thickness...
Vanenbw
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Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:45 pm

I don't even want to go there yet. :D
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Baisao
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Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:28 am

Hopefully this will help though it is mostly a description of what I’ve found works well.

I drink bancha and inexpensive sencha from a yunomi (a type of mug) at work and use a smaller cups for the good stuff. The smaller cups range from 40-70ml.

Typically, I make sencha (and higher grade bancha) with 70ml of water and about 4g of leaves. This is an average. I like the extraction I get and it’s in small enough portions that I can concentrate on the tea, rather than chugging from a yunomi.

Now, considering that I only use about 70ml of water and 4g of leaf you would think that a 100ml kyusu would be more than adequate. However, it feels cramped and is often more difficult to clean than a larger teapot. As such— and because nothing is lost by using a slightly larger kyusu for these teas— I prefer kyusu between 150-200ml.

As I said, they are easier to clean and don’t feel cramped, yet they make perfectly good sencha/bancha. My smaller kyusu gather dust.
Vanenbw
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Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:55 am

Baisao wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:28 am

I drink bancha and inexpensive sencha from a yunomi (a type of mug) at work and use a smaller cups for the good stuff. The smaller cups range from 40-70ml.
Very similiar to the way I drink, although when I drink the better stuff, I'm drinking a little more than 70ml. Probably more like 100-115ml. Your measurements are similar to @nasalfrog. I can see why you would only use that ratio for the good stuff.

How much leaf to water do you use when drinking the inexpensive sencha?
Now, considering that I only use about 70ml of water and 4g of leaf you would think that a 100ml kyusu would be more than adequate. However, it feels cramped and is often more difficult to clean than a larger teapot. As such— and because nothing is lost by using a slightly larger kyusu for these teas— I prefer kyusu between 150-200ml.
Thank you for the helpful information. I really appreciate your feedback. I'll probably go with a 150-180ml for smaller infusions.
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Baisao
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Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:30 pm

Vanenbw wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:55 am
How much leaf to water do you use when drinking the inexpensive sencha?
I’ve never weighed the tea. I just fill a teabag halfway and put a liter of water on. Multiple steeps throughout the day in the yunomi. I do this at work where I will be too distracted to appreciate well made, good quality tea anyway.

Oddly enough, I am able to appreciate the warmth and texture of the yunomi in my hands so I use nice a yunomi at work. Today, I am using one by Yohei Konishi. I like how my fingers fall into the impressions of the potter’s fingers.
Vanenbw
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Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:39 pm

I understand. Selecting the right teaware can alter one's tea drinking experience. I ordered a large 300ml cup online (still waiting for it to arrive). I don't have one favorite cup, and the size of the cups I drink from vary depending on my mood. I have not tried, however, the really small gyokuro cups. I've always enjoyed sitting back with a warm cup of tea, and taking my time while I drink it and savor the flavor.

I can't imagine sitting down and drinking from a 50-70ml cup. I'd be finished within 20 seconds. But if you are just after the flavor, and tasting the tea, I suppose I can see that. Still, it seems like a lot of leaves being used for such a small cup of tea.
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Baisao
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Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:17 pm

Vanenbw wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:39 pm
I understand. Selecting the right teaware can alter one's tea drinking experience. I ordered a large 300ml cup online (still waiting for it to arrive). I don't have one favorite cup, and the size of the cups I drink from vary depending on my mood. I have not tried, however, the really small gyokuro cups. I've always enjoyed sitting back with a warm cup of tea, and taking my time while I drink it and savor the flavor.

I can't imagine sitting down and drinking from a 50-70ml cup. I'd be finished within 20 seconds. But if you are just after the flavor, and tasting the tea, I suppose I can see that. Still, it seems like a lot of leaves being used for such a small cup of tea.
Ideally, a cup should be three sips-worth for savoring good tea. It seems to be about spot on for doing just that.

In addition to cup sizes and tea quality, high end sencha is usually brewed brothier than how most people do it in the west. It's not something you want to gulp from a mug. I suppose a weaker steep is more suitable for larger cups and a savory or thicker steep is best savored in sips.
faj
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Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:27 pm

Baisao wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:17 pm
Ideally, a cup should be three sips-worth for savoring good tea.
You seem to say that from a pure tasting experience point of view (i.e. not related to multiple-infusion cumulative volume or cost of leaves). Am I understanding your intent correctly? If so, can you please explain that part a bit more?
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bentz98125
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Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:51 pm

I can't imagine sitting down and drinking from a 50-70ml cup. I'd be finished within 20 seconds. But if you are just after the flavor, and tasting the tea, I suppose I can see that. Still, it seems like a lot of leaves being used for such a small cup of tea.
Variety of tea finds analogy in the range of various alchoholic beverages. Some are conducive to swallowing, others sipping. A beer stein is a poor whiskey glass and shot glasses are too small for beer. Aftertaste aside, shots of liquor differ from cups of tea in that the flavor from shot to shot is static, whereas with each subsequent steep of the leaves, tea flavor evolves from cup to cup.
Last edited by bentz98125 on Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Baisao
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Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:52 pm

faj wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:27 pm
Baisao wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:17 pm
Ideally, a cup should be three sips-worth for savoring good tea.
You seem to say that from a pure tasting experience point of view (i.e. not related to multiple-infusion cumulative volume or cost of leaves). Am I understanding your intent correctly? If so, can you please explain that part a bit more?
Not an imperial cup but a tea cup.

Imagine sitting with someone preparing sencha for you during senchado. They pour a cup of tea for you. That cup should be enough for three sips.

You return the cup and they fill it again with the second infusion: enough for three sips.

Rinse and repeat.
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