Determining the right size kyusu pot

[Vanenbw]

Imagine sitting with someone preparing sencha for you during senchado. They pour a cup of tea for you. That cup should be enough for three sips.

You return the cup and they fill it again with the second infusion: enough for three sips.

Rinse and repeat.

This makes a lot of sense to me. I knew nothing of this tea drinking world before a couple of months ago. My ex-girlfriend is from Japan, and she is the one who got me into drinking loose leaf green tea years ago. She never purchased the gourmet tea, though. She would return from her visits to Japan with bags of tea brands you find in Asian grocery stores (Itoen, Yamamotoyama, etc.). She did have a kyusu, but we never brewed the kind of leaf to water ratios I'm learning about now, but it really makes perfect sense to me. This "world" reminds me of going to the wine tastings upstate in wine country every year. We would really enjoy these small portions of wine coupled with some food the wineries spread out on the counters. We would swish the wine in our mouths and taste the fruity notes. The tastings were fun, but never meant for long drinking sessions. Then, at home, my girlfriend might enjoy a large glass of red wine with her dinner (I was never much into the wines, but I did enjoy the wine tastings).

I can appreciate what, and how much you drink is dictated on your mood and the moment. When I was working today (from home), I enjoyed four infusions of sencha in a 9 oz. cup, with only 5.32 grams of tea leaf. I like knowing I can control the strength of the tea, depending on what I desire at the moment. That worked for me earlier today. Now, however, I am drinking another sencha in a small, porcelain cup. 130ml of water to 6.5 grams of tea this time. I borrowed that ratio from Akira Hojo, in a video I found on YouTube. He suggested the tea leaf should be 5% the volume of the kyusu. I have a large 360ml kyusu, so I used 5% of the volume of water instead, which was 130ml.

This is a new way for me to drink tea. I do like it; however, I think the grassy, vegetal notes I identified earlier were muted (maybe even lost) with the higher leaf to water ratio. I would have to play around with it and pull it back a bit to see if a little less leaf might work better for me.

I think there is a time to sip and savor your tea, and a time to drink a large mug if you so desire, but no doubt the leaf to water ration will change depending on how you are drinking.

[faj]

Imagine sitting with someone preparing sencha for you during senchado. They pour a cup of tea for you. That cup should be enough for three sips.

You return the cup and they fill it again with the second infusion: enough for three sips.

Rinse and repeat.

If I understand correctly, you mean that three sips is about right so that the tea is drunk at about the same rate as it is made in successive infusions, given typical infusion parameters. Is that it?

[faj]

When I was working today (from home), I enjoyed four infusions of sencha in a 9 oz. cup, with only 5.32 grams of tea leaf. I like knowing I can control the strength of the tea, depending on what I desire at the moment. That worked for me earlier today. Now, however, I am drinking another sencha in a small, porcelain cup. 130ml of water to 6.5 grams of tea this time.

What I have noticed is the amount of tea I brew, without being fixed, tends to hover around 4g, irrespective of the size of the vessel. Gaiwan? About 4g in 100ml of water. Big cup? About 4g in 350ml. If I am going to brew a 200ml? Probably around 4g too. I will not always use that exact amount, but it tends to be my starting point. I am not stating that as a recommendation, but I notice I have developed a tendency to do that.

It makes sense if you think about the "portion size" as being the amount of tea leaves rather than amount of water. I tend to go with a "standard portion", and adapt the amount of water (and brew parameters) based on the occasion. If I do a tasting with my daughter, we will share tea from a 100ml gaiwan or teapot for short, repeated infusions. If I head into a long meeting, I will brew a bigger cup for a longer time.

This is a new way for me to drink tea. I do like it; however, I think the grassy, vegetal notes I identified earlier were muted (maybe even lost) with the higher leaf to water ratio. I would have to play around with it and pull it back a bit to see if a little less leaf might work better for me.

I have noticed that not all parts of the flavor profile of a tea evolve at the same rate when changing the water-to-leaf ratio. Increasing the water-to-leaf ratio does not give you the same tasting experience, only more intense along a linear or logarithmic scale : some notes reach a saturation point where additional concentration has little impact, whereas some notes that were below the perception threshold become apparent.

In the case of sencha, especially, I have found that in many cases, trying to compensate for a tea that seemed lacking though not offensive by boosting the amount of leaf tends to yield a brew that has more of the things you do not want, and not much more of the things you hoped for. The umami/saltiness may overpower the aromatics, losing the grassy notes as you describe.

I think I have not seen that clearly discussed, but it seems to me (not speaking as an expert at all) that the ability of a tea to gain in richness and complexity as the concentration increases while avoiding unpleasant characteristics to be revealed might important to judging a good, or at least flexible, tea.

[Vanenbw]

What I have noticed is the amount of tea I brew, without being fixed, tends to hover around 4g, irrespective of the size of the vessel. Gaiwan? About 4g in 100ml of water. Big cup? About 4g in 350ml. If I am going to brew a 200ml? Probably around 4g too. I will not always use that exact amount, but it tends to be my starting point. I am not stating that as a recommendation, but I notice I have developed a tendency to do that.

Now that is interesting. You would think 4gm to 350ml would be very watered down, but it depends on your personal taste. I was brewing "my" way before I learned online how sencha should be brewed. I was eyeballing the tea, which may very well have been about 4 grams to 360ml. I would pour in boiling hot water, and steep for several minutes. I only drank one infusion, but three small cups of it, so the tea left in the kyusu would continue to steep. The third cup (not a full cup), was the strongest, but it was cloying or so bitter that it became undesirable. I liked how the astringency strengthened with each successive cup. Now I find myself experimenting with different rations to see what I like best.

In the case of sencha, especially, I have found that in many cases, trying to compensate for a tea that seemed lacking though not offensive by boosting the amount of leaf tends to yield a brew that has more of the things you do not want, and not much more of the things you hoped for. The umami/saltiness may overpower the aromatics, losing the grassy notes as you describe.

That's what I noticed tonight, but i usually don't go with such a high leaf to water ratio. Aside from not wanting to blow through hundreds of grams of tea a month (and hundreds of dollars), I think I am preferring the mellow, grassy flavor of the brews where I use a lower leaf to water ratio. I am not bothered by the bitterness of tea that has been steeping for too long, or strong infusions with a higher leaf to water ratio. I'm just noticing that the flavors I enjoyed earlier are muted if I use too much too leaf. I need to keep playing around with the rations and temperatures. It's kind of fun, to be honest. I've gotten a little obsessive about it, creating an Excel spreadsheet with notes on how I achieved each brew and its results.

[faj]

That's what I noticed tonight, but i usually don't go with such a high leaf to water ratio. Aside from not wanting to blow through hundreds of grams of tea a month (and hundreds of dollars), I think I am preferring the mellow, grassy flavor of the brews where I use a lower leaf to water ratio.

As I have tried more teas, I have found that I am more willing to spend more when I feel it makes a real difference. It does not mean that all teas I like are expensive, but the average price of what I buy has increased over time, and I expect it might continue to do so. I guess the key is to keep the expense as a level you are comfortable with given the enjoyment you get out of it.

I've gotten a little obsessive about it, creating an Excel spreadsheet with notes on how I achieved each brew and its results.

I prefer to use the word "organized" . I think that, given the expense in time and money, you might as well try to use the experience to progressively increase your knowledge and enjoyment. When you nail down brewing parameters that make a tea special to you after several experiments with it, you might as well try to crystallize that knowledge in a form that is reusable if you purchase it again a few months later.

[Baisao]

@Vanenbw, you understand it perfectly and elaborated better than I ever could.

[Baisao]

Imagine sitting with someone preparing sencha for you during senchado. They pour a cup of tea for you. That cup should be enough for three sips.

You return the cup and they fill it again with the second infusion: enough for three sips.

Rinse and repeat.

If I understand correctly, you mean that three sips is about right so that the tea is drunk at about the same rate as it is made in successive infusions, given typical infusion parameters. Is that it?

Yes. Not jockeying parameters, just discussing a serving size for senchado.

Like in a Japanese workplace, I’ll drink bancha or inexpensive sencha in a yunomi.

Both are fine but are different experiences.

[Baisao]

@Vanenbw, I also like bitterness sometimes but sencha can get incredibly bitter, as bitter as a tincture of wormwood.

A typical blended sencha is structured around three notes: some form of umami, something green, some kind of citrus.

Umami can have different broth-like flavors but typically this will be the same flavor with department store sencha.

That green note might be grass, as you have observed or something else, like spinach or crushed leaves.

The citrus note can vary from bright lemon to a warm bergamot.

Of course not all senchas are this way but this seems to be a general formula that blenders follow.

Some of my favorites break these rules. The umami portion might be smoked peat, animal musk, or dried scallops. The green portion might be crushed cherry leaves, or chrysanthemums. The citrus might be replaced with something altogether unexpected like red berries or sugar candies.

You can get an enormous variety of aromas with different steeping parameters and by searching out unusual cultivars.

Also, a note on Hojo: don’t take everything he says as gospel. He’s a fascinating person but I think he gets too analytical. I am not very dogmatic about tea but I do believe in spending time with a tea, trying different things, always listening to what it wants to give you.

[Vanenbw]

As I have tried more teas, I have found that I am more willing to spend more when I feel it makes a real difference. It does not mean that all teas I like are expensive, but the average price of what I buy has increased over time, and I expect it might continue to do so.

I can see myself doing the same thing. It's like I'm going deeper into this underworld I knew nothing about at first, and the deeper I go, the more teas I will try, the more money I will spend. I hope I don't become a tea junky, languishing on the ground in front of tea shops begging for some change for my next "fix."

I prefer to use the word "organized" . I think that, given the expense in time and money, you might as well try to use the experience to progressively increase your knowledge and enjoyment. When you nail down brewing parameters that make a tea special to you after several experiments with it, you might as well try to crystallize that knowledge in a form that is reusable if you purchase it again a few months later.

Yes, I would say "organized" is a more appropriate word to describe it. I know I won't be maintaining a spreadsheet for too long, but for now I think it's important that I experiment and record the results because this is the first time I have ever measured water, tea leaves, and temperature. And by doing so, I uncovered flavors I have never tasted in green tea before (and I've been drinking green tea for over 30 years).

A typical blended sencha is structured around three notes: some form of umami, something green, some kind of citrus.

I have probably detected all three so far on some level; however, as a vegan, I try not to think about smoked peat, animal must, or dried scallops while I'm drinking.

Also, a note on Hojo: don’t take everything he says as gospel. He’s a fascinating person but I think he gets too analytical. I am not very dogmatic about tea but I do believe in spending time with a tea, trying different things, always listening to what it wants to give you.

Good advice. I haven't taken anything I've heard as gospel, from any of the tea experts, because the brewing advice I've come across has been so vastly different. What I like to start with is O-cha.com's advice, which is .6 grams to 30ml (or approximately 1 gram to 50ml). That seems to be like a safe place to begin, and then I take notes and determine if I would like a stronger flavor or not. I will often up the amount of leaves to water anyway just to see what it tastes like, and if it's too much for me, or I feel that other flavors are becoming muted, I will pull back the amount of tea leaves the next time I brew.

[debunix]

I think I have not seen that clearly discussed, but it seems to me (not speaking as an expert at all) that the ability of a tea to gain in richness and complexity as the concentration increases while avoiding unpleasant characteristics to be revealed might important to judging a good, or at least flexible, tea.

This is what I remember being described about competition judging of teas: high concentration of leaf, high temperature, and relatively long infusions to 'push' a tea and give knowledgeable drinkers the ability to discern the best and worst of the potential inherent in the tea.

I think I am preferring the mellow, grassy flavor of the brews where I use a lower leaf to water ratio.

Me too. I also prefer my gyokuro brewed at somewhat hotter temperatures--essentially like sencha--because I am less fond of the brothy seawater umami than of the sweet floral fruity notes I can get out of it at higher temperatures.

[Baisao]

I think I have not seen that clearly discussed, but it seems to me (not speaking as an expert at all) that the ability of a tea to gain in richness and complexity as the concentration increases while avoiding unpleasant characteristics to be revealed might important to judging a good, or at least flexible, tea.

This is what I remember being described about competition judging of teas: high concentration of leaf, high temperature, and relatively long infusions to 'push' a tea and give knowledgeable drinkers the ability to discern the best and worst of the potential inherent in the tea.

I think I am preferring the mellow, grassy flavor of the brews where I use a lower leaf to water ratio.

Me too. I also prefer my gyokuro brewed at somewhat hotter temperatures--essentially like sencha--because I am less fond of the brothy seawater umami than of the sweet floral fruity notes I can get out of it at higher temperatures.

And this is why I think it’s great that we not be too dogmatic about tea preparation. Different strokes...

I see value in learning proper cultural ways of preparing and serving teas, especially in the beginning, but ultimately it comes down to how you like it.

[faj]

I see value in learning proper cultural ways of preparing and serving teas, especially in the beginning, but ultimately it comes down to how you like it.

People who are drawn to tea mostly because they like the ceremonial and dogmatic aspect will get a lot from learning the "proper cultural ways of preparing tea", as you call them. To them, most of the value of the whole experience is in the ceremony and dogma, not the tea itself. These people will probably stick more rigorously to the "right way" to do things, and this will probably yield more enjoyment for them.

People who are drawn to tea mostly because of their enjoyment of the tea itself will also benefit a lot from discovering the codified ways to prepare certain teas as they embed accumulated practical knowledge along with the dogmas, but these people will probably instinctively bend the rules to explore how to get the results they prefer as they experiment.

All in all, I think the canons of the art of making tea will probably, most of the time, be limits only to the people who are happier living within more rigidly observed rules.

[Baisao]

I agree with you regarding those who are looking for dogma and ritual.

I’ll add that there is importance in learning the way of a given culture, not just for dogmatic reasons, but practical ones.

There is a unique affinity for specific flavors that varies by culture. And in this case we have savory ocean flavors that are sought after by the Japanese being altered to suit the tastes of westerners who do not like savory ocean flavors, but do like delicate green flavors.

For a long time I was making sencha in a way that suited my western palate (I didn’t know the Japanese way) and assumed I was making sencha the “correct” way, since it was perfectly delicious to me and I never thought to steep in a way that could give me such very different flavors.

So?

Well, an awful lot of energy goes into selecting genetic lines, growing, producing, and blending teas that have the characteristics many of us are trying to avoid!

Like @debunix, I don’t like gyokuro that’s super brothy. I like it prepared with a more delicate structure.

I’m not going to say there’s only one right way, but it is worth considering that we often go through hoops to avoid the nature of the tea because our culture is different than the originating one.

[Vanenbw]

People who are drawn to tea mostly because of their enjoyment of the tea itself will also benefit a lot from discovering the codified ways to prepare certain teas as they embed accumulated practical knowledge along with the dogmas, but these people will probably instinctively bend the rules to explore how to get the results they prefer as they experiment.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I feel the same way about drinking tea. I was never aware of this competition-level tea brewing and drinking society. Tea was always just some tea leaves steeping in water for a few minutes to bring out the flavor; it's something I always loved, and drinking a few cups of tea (mostly always green tea) a day has been a part of my life for many years. But now, like Siddhartha Gautama attaining enlightenment while sitting under the Bodhi tree, I see tea drinking in a whole new light. I still drink large cups of tea steeped for several minutes, and sometimes I want some strong, bitter tea. But now I have control over how I brew tea, and I am learning how to bring out flavors from the leaves I never tasted before.

I want to know the rules, and I want to learn how to properly brew tea, but I am no purist. And I will bend the rules at times to suit my own desire at any given moment.

For a long time I was making sencha in a way that suited my western palate (I didn’t know the Japanese way) and assumed I was making sencha the “correct” way, since it was perfectly delicious to me and I never thought to steep in a way that could give me such very different flavors.

Same here, and I'm very glad I discovered the "proper" way to brew sencha.

Me too. I also prefer my gyokuro brewed at somewhat hotter temperatures--essentially like sencha--because I am less fond of the brothy seawater umami than of the sweet floral fruity notes I can get out of it at higher temperatures.

I have been very curious about trying gyokuro. I need to purchase a smaller kyusu or a shiboridashi or houhin.

[faj]

Well, an awful lot of energy goes into selecting genetic lines, growing, producing, and blending teas that have the characteristics many of us are trying to avoid!

It is true that development investments may not be aligned with the Western palate. However, I am not sure the efforts that are made to improve, say, Japanese teas, really are working against Western drinkers to a high degree.

If Japanese drinkers had tastes entirely opposite to mine, I would expect to find Japanese teas less and less enjoyable as I move up the quality ladder as defined by prices (not a perfect proxy, but not worthless either). In reality, I have found that, roughly speaking and on average, I enjoy pricier senchas and gyokuros more than less expensive ones, and I do not prefer reducing the amount of leaf for pricier Japanese teas compared to less expensive ones.

I have far too little experience and knowledge to speak with any authority on this, so this is purely anecdotal. Maybe I am part of a sub-group of Western drinkers who do not mind heavier umami. Maybe Japanese drinkers also appreciate some other aspects of tea that Westerners like which producers also try to develop in their teas.