Determining the right size kyusu pot

[bentz98125]

Love the fascination provided by these multiple perspectives. I identify with some and am interested in those I don't. The wealth of options to explore is exciting. But in the dialogue, whenever generalizations about "western" and "eastern" tea preferences are made, a couple things give pause. The first is how we (especially us green tea lovers) often conflate Japanese sensiblities with all of asia when the Japanese approach to tea is in fact so distinctive from the rest of asia. A second pause is whenever the term "western" describes non-asian sensiblilties with regard to tea. Firstly because the "western palate" (like the asian) is so diverse. For example, lumping together a butter and cream, meat and potatoes loving american palate of say, German or scandinavian origin, with a habenero swilling hot and spicy american palate of say, Mexican heritage, does not make sense. Secondly, for a prefence of something to exist, the something, needs to exist. In the west, tea as something doesn't exist. Not that a lot of tea hasn't been consumed there- until the advent of instant coffee, tea sales dwarfed coffee. But the way it was drunk with sugar and sometimes milk, was an experience too narrow to base a "preference" upon. Like asking the average Starbucks customer what degree of fruity flavor do they prefer in coffee when all they've ever tried is mostly dairy, chocolate, and sugar mixed with a little dark roasted coffee. You may as well ask for a critique of Shakespeare from someone who has never heard or read Shakepeare. It's too early to generalize about "western" tea preferences in a meaningful way. And if asian experience is any guide, when western tea culture is evolved enough to generalize meaningfully about its preferences, those preferences will probably be too varied to typify in the aggregate! In the meantime I'd propose better than "western" and "eastern" to generalize about tea drinkers, would be "experienced" vs "inexperienced"- asians being most of the former, and westerners the majority of the latter. (But only if it aids cultural variety instead of the interchangeable homogeneous standard "modernity" seems to prefer.)

[Vanenbw]

In the meantime I'd propose better than "western" and "eastern" to generalize about tea drinkers, would be "experienced" vs "inexperienced"- asians being most of the former, and westerners the majority of the latter.

That is reasonable, and you made a valid point regarding the conflation of, let's say, Japanese and Asian tea drinking. I think that's a prevalent trend we see in America (I will only reference America because it's the country I am most familiar with). Take Asian infusion restaurants. What is that? It's an Asian-feel restaurant. A little Thai, a little Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and a touch of American. Inherently, there is nothing wrong with it. I'm not a fan of it, but I'm not a purist either. I do have a respect for the cultural background of the teas I'm interested in drinking. That's just my personal interest. Some people are fine drinking their citrus-flavored tea bags from the supermarket, and drinking trendy teas from a Manhattan tea house and thinking they are current, worldly, and stylish. But at the other end of the spectrum, it could be funny to watch me go through my ritual pouring my tea, folding my hands and breathing evenly as I patiently wait between steeps, as if I'm some Zen Buddhist mindfully drinking a cup of tea. I do "play the part" sometimes, but that's because I respect the culture that cultivated ritual in the the first place. But truth to tell, I don't know what I'm doing, and now that I found these tea forums, I'm realizing what a true neophyte I am really am. I'm okay with that though. I always remember the quote written by the Zen Buddist monk, Shunryu Suzuki, from his book, Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind: "In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few.

I would rather be a beginner than an expert. It's more fun, and there's much to look forward to.

[Baisao]

In the west, tea as something doesn't exist.

Besides English tea, there's tea as prepared and enjoyed by the Scots and Irish. There's also Friesian tea. I suppose Russian tea is technically Eastern but the targeted tastes more closely resemble Western tea as consumed in Europe. Of course there is tea as prepared in the U.S., which seems to have a targeted set of flavors when prepared. Notably, American chain coffee/tea houses that prepare green teas select and prepare green teas that suit the American palate: delicate and citrusy. You can be sure that they select and prepare green teas this way deliberately.

It's too early to generalize about "western" tea preferences in a meaningful way.

Nope.

And if asian experience is any guide, when western tea culture is evolved enough to generalize meaningfully about its preferences, those preferences will probably be too varied to typify in the aggregate!

We can already see aggregated preferences by looking at how chain coffee/tea houses select and prepare green tea. If, for example, The Coffee Bean & Tea Leaf felt customers wanted more savory green teas with notes of yaki imo, they would be selling them. Instead they are selling grassy green teas with bright citrus notes that are easily approachable. They do this because they want to sell teas that their Western customers will drink.

[Victoria]

And if asian experience is any guide, when western tea culture is evolved enough to generalize meaningfully about its preferences, those preferences will probably be too varied to typify in the aggregate!

We can already see aggregated preferences by looking at how chain coffee/tea houses select and prepare green tea. If, for example, The Coffee Bean & Tea Leaf felt customers wanted more savory green teas with notes of yaki imo, they would be selling them. Instead they are selling grassy green teas with bright citrus notes that are easily approachable. They do this because they want to sell teas that their Western customers will drink.

Since North, South and Central America will have different generalized preferences, I’d refer to what Baisao is identifying as a North American market preference. Mate and coffee in Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay and Brazil is served very strong espresso style mostly. In Brazil there is a large Japanese constituency (1.5 million, the largest Japanese population outside Japan) that farms Japanese green teas and enjoys it the traditional way. Whenever I hear Western I think early 17th century tea trade. Difficult to lump together Europe and the Americas.

[Baisao]

It’s easy to forget there’s a whole other continent down there.

[Bok]

It’s easy to forget there’s a whole other continent down there.

Seen how politics are going on at the moment up North, maybe that’s a good thing...

[Baisao]

It’s easy to forget there’s a whole other continent down there.

Seen how politics are going on at the moment up North, maybe that’s a good thing...

We’re better off than Venezuela but give it time and we’ll be in the gutter too.

[bentz98125]

I appreciate that tea is drunk in the "west" and its drinkers view themselves as having preferences. But tea as drunk in Japan and China is so rare in my neck of the (western) woods, I'd like a penny for every blank stare and befuddled question I get when drinking tea in an "asian" way. Many don't know it's even possible to drink tea without a teabag. Their "preferences" in tea just don't mean anything to me. Yes it is snobby, but such is fate with all judgements of quality . Starving peasants had no access to the same tea as feudal masters and by the same token don't ask an aristocrat how to cook an inexpensive cut of meat.

[Vanenbw]

I can appreciate what it feels like to be "different." Not only am I obsessed with tea (always been a tea drinker, but recently bitten by the tea obsession bug), but I'm a vegan. Talk about being on the outskirts of society. I'm a happy camper though.

[bentz98125]

I can appreciate what it feels like to be "different." Not only am I obsessed with tea (always been a tea drinker, but recently bitten by the tea obsession bug), but I'm a vegan. Talk about being on the outskirts of society. I'm a happy camper though.

Right on!

[S_B]

Hopefully this will help though it is mostly a description of what I’ve found works well.

I drink bancha and inexpensive sencha from a yunomi (a type of mug) at work and use a smaller cups for the good stuff. The smaller cups range from 40-70ml.

Typically, I make sencha (and higher grade bancha) with 70ml of water and about 4g of leaves. This is an average. I like the extraction I get and it’s in small enough portions that I can concentrate on the tea, rather than chugging from a yunomi.

Now, considering that I only use about 70ml of water and 4g of leaf you would think that a 100ml kyusu would be more than adequate. However, it feels cramped and is often more difficult to clean than a larger teapot. As such— and because nothing is lost by using a slightly larger kyusu for these teas— I prefer kyusu between 150-200ml.

As I said, they are easier to clean and don’t feel cramped, yet they make perfectly good sencha/bancha. My smaller kyusu gather dust.

Sorry to revive this post so many months in the future, but lately kyusu size has been a heavy point on my mind. Speaking to some folk around the internet and in Tokoname, it seems like the "ideal" fill for a kyusu is ~70% volume. Discussing this with @Victoria and a few others had me quite curious, since as mentioned in another thread discussing yuzamashi information , Yuzamashi included in Kyusu sets were only ~40% of the Kyusu's volume. It could be implied that this means kyusu don't really need to be filled so full.

When I asked why this might be, my acquaintance in Tokoname explained that it is simply an aesthetic choice rather than anything else - restating that ideally, one would try to find an appropriate kyusu for their use (ideally still filling to 70%ish)

All of this said, I am not bound to any dogmatic views of tea, nor do I feel "bound" to anything other than what gets me the best brews. Unfortunately I am plagued with a phenomenon that perhaps afflicts many more teadrinkers than just myself...I do much more thinking and reading outside of actual tea drinking, and often possibilities that I have not yet even tried myself will cloud my mind for days at a time while I seek answers outside of my own cup of tea.

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TLDR... I have been thinking about ways to reduce the amount of sencha I am drinking to about 90cc, but my current kyusu selection is between 230ml and 260ml.

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@Baisao I would love to hear more on your thoughts of brewing in larger Kyusu but using 70ml of water. I will of course try to do so myself, but I am curious if you think that there might still be a "sweet spot" kyusu size despite only partial-filling yourself to achieve those highly concentrated and delicious brews?

I'm not sure if there is a Western internet consensus previously established on the matter (again I am just curious for data, not that any consensus will bind me to any given brewing method), or if anybody has noticed Japanese tea drinkers also filling their kyusu much less than 50% when brewing just for themselves by chance?

I have noticed in some tutorials that larger vesels and little amounts of water are used, such as in this clip from maikotea, however, their written instructions do not reflect quite the same method in this brewing video...

Again, the short of it is that my mind is conflicted between just brewing however I want, and the pain of "chasing the dragon," that everlasting futile quest for getting the perfect cup of tea, and perfecting that craft through careful consideration of how to approach brewing...though too much of that and I may accidentally turn into a Hojo.

[Noonie]

Reading the latest posts about kyusu size has me wondering about other teas and pots as well.

Like ball rolled oolong, I use 5-6g in a 100ml gaiwan and afternoon five steeps I can barely get the lid on as the tea is bursting at the seems. Makes me think I should get a 150-200ml gaiwan and use the same water and tea volumes. Other than extra space where heat may escape (?) I cant think of the drawbacks of doing this...anyone?

[Victoria]

@S_B a 70% fill with a kyusu sounds like an elegant way to go, probably helps to prevent any dripping via the lid. I was really surprised by how much smaller the yuzamashi were in relation the the kyusu in those older sets that I have. Even the 5 cups carry more ml capacity than the yuzamashi. I’ve filled kyusu half way with Japanese greens many times with no issue, and a bigger Jozan III I use for those big Fushoushan leaves to fully expand out.

@Noonie I recently saw this 190ml gaiwan, very tempted to get it after these shipping difficulties go away; https://www.morimatea.com/collections/t ... cai-gaiwan. I have a 150ml gaiwan that gets a lot of use during our tastings, no issue really filling it 60% other than air inside will cool slightly, so not ideal for yancha.

[Baisao]

@S_B

Baisao I would love to hear more on your thoughts of brewing in larger Kyusu but using 70ml of water. I will of course try to do so myself, but I am curious if you think that there might still be a "sweet spot" kyusu size despite only partial-filling yourself to achieve those highly concentrated and delicious brews?

I agree with Victoria on this. Obviously there is a threshold where the teapot it too big. As a thought experiment, imagine brewing that 70ml of sencha in a large casserole dish or Brown Betty: we clearly would not expect the tea to taste the same as if it had been brewed in a 150ml teapot, even if preheated. I do not know where that threshold is, however, but my intuition is that smaller vessels gather more aroma than larger vessels. I still prefer 50-70% volume for sencha.

Regarding yuzamashi: I have also been puzzled by the size of them in sets. I don't think the volume of the yuzamashi would fill the volume of the 5 cups my sets have come with. A friend who studied senchado in Japan told me that yuzamashi are not used for sencha/bancha but for gyokuro. This information and the size of the yuzamashi leads me to believe that yuzamashi are added to sets so that one can make gyokuro with the set. This is speculative, I admit. I am just putting things together.

[Noonie]

Tonight I'm trying a larger pot to brew my high mountain oolong. I have a glazed kyusu that's around 200ml. Used 6g of leaves and around 100ml of water. I heated the water to a higher temp and first poured into my cup (120ml) then into the kyusu, as opposed to guessing from pouring straight into the kyusu. First two infusions were a little bland. Third on were much better, as the leaves were really starting to open. The flavour was more robust even though the brewing parameters were very close to using a ceramic or porcelain gaiwan. I'm pretty happy with it and will be using this kyusu most of the time with this tea, but I'll go back to the smaller gaiwan now and then to continue to compare.