Deep shiboridashi as general-use teapot?

faj
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Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:32 pm

Searching for a clay teapot to experiment with, I saw Kobiwako clay mentioned as having an obvious effect on taste, and being a good fit for sencha and greener oolongs, which I drink often and could be a good long-term use. Now, I tip my hat at Hojo's genius. Marketing genius that is: so many clays, so many teapot types, sizes, shapes, firings... There are more Hojo teapots than Pokemon. Gotta Steep 'Em All (tm).

There is a deep (cup-like) Kobiwako shiboridashi (around 100ml) I really like, but I wonder if a side-handle kyusu or hohin would be enough of a better choice (pour speed? clogging? anything else?), to warrant steering away. There is a video showing it used to infuse red tea, with a few leaves escaping the vessel :

https://hojotea.com/en/posts-189/

Would a kyusu or hohin be much better for teas with smaller leaves, especially sencha?
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Baisao
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Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:45 pm

That looks like a hohin to me, rather than a shiboridashi. I suppose the name doesn’t matter so much as how usable it is. To answer your question: I think hohin are great for making single servings of sencha. I see no benefit to go larger unless you are pouring for more than 2 people.

If pouring for more people you will want a larger volume. Because of the increased volume, you’d want one with a handle. I prefer side handle.

FWIW, I’ve made sencha for more than 2 people at a time less than 5 times in all these years. I rarely make more than 70ml of sencha at a time so a hohin would suit me well.

Lastly, you don’t have to worry about pour speed or clogging with these.
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Baisao
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Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:56 pm

On closer inspection I see why it is a shiboridashi and not a hohin.

You’ll get more leaf matter in this but pour slowly and it won’t be bad. Works the same as a gaiwan.

Hard to go wrong with this.
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pedant
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Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:13 am

agreed, i think it's a shibo. here's one take on it: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=504

as a general purpose pot, i think hohin is very nice. maybe my favorite teapot form. highly functional. i should get more of them!
i see Hojo has several kobiwako clay hohin by MAEKAWA Junzo (前川淳蔵) in the 100-120mL range. hohin would be my top choice.
if you're going for maximum general purpose functionality, grab one with a tall rim skirt. that's where you grab it, and more distance will protect you more from burns at gongfu temps. the longer and thinner the skirt, the better -- more surface for cooling + less cross sectional area for conduction.

but hey, my most-used pot is a basic gaiwan. a gaiwan's more like a shibo than a hohin, so whatever.

if you really like one of the shibos in particular, then just get that. note that his shibo style has a defined rim though, so the lid position is fixed.
Hojo wrote: https://hojotea.com/en/posts-189/
As for Shiboridashi, we do not have to adjust the gap between the lid and the body. So it makes our tea life becomes easier.
not only do you not have to, but you can't. i'm used to having control, but if the fixed gap is a good size, it shouldn't matter.
hohin's going to pour faster though. they're the fastest pour out there if that matters to you.
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nasalfrog
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Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:25 am

I have never used a shibo or gaiwan, so I can't speak to that question.

In case you end up choosing between a kyusu or hohin, though, I do have a Kobiwako kyusu and a red Iga hohin both by Junzo. As far as form goes, I actually prefer the hohin.

It is more compact/minimal than my kyusu, so it takes up less space in my cabinet. Plus there isn't an easily chip-able spout and handle. It also has a very wide opening that makes it easy to load the tea, view/smell the leaves, clean, and gauge how much water I am adding. As has been stated, it pours faster as well.

Both my kyusu and hohin tend to dribble a bit, but with more practice this has gotten to be less of a problem.

The Kobiwako clay brews much better sencha than the Iga, so definitely go with that.
faj
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Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:55 am

Baisao wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:56 pm
You’ll get more leaf matter in this but pour slowly and it won’t be bad. Works the same as a gaiwan.
Reading your comment, I realize do not remember trying to brew sencha with a gaiwan... I will try that, it should help me decide if the shiboridashi is something I can live with for Japanese green teas.

Thanks @Baisao!
faj
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Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:15 pm

Thanks for the comments @pedant.
pedant wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:13 am
if you're going for maximum general purpose functionality, grab one with a tall rim skirt. that's where you grab it, and more distance will protect you more from burns at gongfu temps.
This is a good point. The smaller Kobiwako hohins have "skirts" that do not seem taller than that of the shiboridashi of the same size. If I were to choose a bigger hohin, then it might be a tad big for gongu-style. In other words, I might have a choice between "does not burn your fingers" and "is ideal size for gongfu-style". Then the kyusu wins.
pedant wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:13 am
hohin's going to pour faster though. they're the fastest pour out there if that matters to you.
Looking at the video, I am not entirely sure. The shiboridashi seems to pour quite quickly. Maybe it tends to loose more pour speed with some tea leaves compared to the hohin, but then I guess if the leaves are very small, then the actual bottleneck is the leaves, note the teapot.
faj
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Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:20 pm

nasalfrog wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:25 am
It is more compact/minimal than my kyusu, so it takes up less space in my cabinet.
That is a useful characteristic for someone who buys too much teaware. This is not a good description of me... yet. I might want to heed your words as a precaution. :D
nasalfrog wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:25 am
The Kobiwako clay brews much better sencha than the Iga, so definitely go with that.
That was my intent.

Thanks @nasalfrog!
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Baisao
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Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:54 pm

A brief word about side-handle kyusu and very hot water: your pouring hand is going to be close to the body or even touching it so you are likely to get burned unless your grip is a cm from the pot. Some experienced people still find it difficult to use side-handle kyusu for very hot pours.

Bofura (water heating pots) with side-handles don’t have this problem as the handles are designed to be comfortably held away from the body and the clay doesn’t conduct heat very well.
faj
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Sat Oct 26, 2019 2:42 pm

Baisao wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:54 pm
A brief word about side-handle kyusu and very hot water: your pouring hand is going to be close to the body or even touching it so you are likely to get burned unless your grip is a cm from the pot. Some experienced people still find it difficult to use side-handle kyusu for very hot pours.
Noted.

@Baisao, I remember your recommendation for 100ml (or less) in volume, and avoiding pots that are too "flat". There is a Kobikawo xishi-like pot, but it is 150ml. Better for not burning your fingers I guess, but maybe more of a problem than a solution overall for single-person drinking.

I actually noticed a hohin (110m) with a taller skirt, but the shape is less "cup-like", the inside is a bit more cavernous. It drifts further away from the "simple, easy to clean" shape of the shiboridashi.

You can't have everything I guess. First world problems, I know. :)

As an aside, would it be fair to say that teas for which a quick pour is most important typically have leaves that are rather big and are not prone to clogging or passing through any type of opening?
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pedant
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Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:05 pm

again, i'm in love with hohins. i was originally going to get a junzo hohin, but then someone sold me one of his side handle kyusus at a price i couldn't refuse.

just fyi, its side handle is generously sized, so i've never burned myself with it. not sure if they're all like that. hojo's product photos aren't taken from a revealing perspective. it certainly has the greatest handle length to volume ratio of any pot i have. as a result, it has the highest center of gravity of any pot i have. i have to be slightly more careful than usual about not knocking it over.

my review of the pot in question: viewtopic.php?p=8522#p8522
(look at the previous post to see a picture of it and its long handle)
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Baisao
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Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:05 pm

@faj, I don’t recall if I ever gave the reason to avoid the larger pots for GFC (I think it was in the post that got lost) but the reason is mostly a matter of economics if you are only making tea for yourself.

Using a common guideline for GFC with balled teas, a 100ml teapot filled to the brim would take 6g of leaf. A 150ml teapot filled to the brim would take 8.5g of leaf. That 2.5 grams adds up.

Of course you would be filling it to the brim if doing GFC, not to mention that’s a lot of tea for one person. For example, I’ll use a 150ml pot for serving 4 people with 40ml cups each.

With GFC, it takes a different set of skills to make great tea in teapots that are larger than 150ml. I’ve seen Taiwanese friends make tea in massive 300ml teapots but it lacked what I know they could have achieved with a 80-120ml teapot.

With Japanese loose leaf teas, you don’t need to fill the teapots to the brim so you can use a 200ml pot for single servings.

+1 (or is it +2?) for hohins!
faj
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Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:14 am

Baisao wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:05 pm
Using a common guideline for GFC with balled teas, a 100ml teapot filled to the brim would take 6g of leaf. A 150ml teapot filled to the brim would take 8.5g of leaf. That 2.5 grams adds up. Of course you would be filling it to the brim if doing GFC, not to mention that’s a lot of tea for one person.
Yes, this is what I understood from your previous comments and other readings : full pot (leaves and water) = lots of potentially costly leaves and lots of tea to drink. Less water and leaves in a partially filled pot may not be as good for infusion quality for teas that require high and sustained heat.
Baisao wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:05 pm
With Japanese loose leaf teas, you don’t need to fill the teapots to the brim so you can use a 200ml pot for single servings.
I would like to at least experiment with other teas with that teapot, most notably greener oolongs, which tend to pair well with Kobiwako clay based on comments I have read. That's why @pedant's comments about the skirts of the hohins vs. high water temperature got my attention, as I assume these teas, and others I would play with, would not infuse ideally in a partially filled teapot.
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Baisao
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Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:19 am

@faj, with that in mind I think a hohin or deep shibo is a sensible choice.

I like these hohin, myself. They are glazed and made en mass but have a good feel. They come up on eBay every once in a while.
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C077CA05-B3DB-4050-8FAB-CF578237C4A1.jpeg (251.74 KiB) Viewed 6205 times
faj
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Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:23 pm

I tested a gaiwan with a sencha that had a fair amount of small leaf pieces, but no significant amount of very small particles (not best case, not worst case). In a first session, which I managed more casually, I had leaves flowing out during each infusion. It was nothing very bad, and I do not mind a few leaves in my cup, but the amount was enough that it was not insignificant, either. In a second session, I was more careful. I was able to get no leaves flowing out at the expense of a very slow pour, but was unable to achieve both a sufficiently quick pour and few to no leaves flowing out. Now, someone else may be better at this than I am, but the sweet spot, if it exists, will be small and difficult to reproduce consistently for anyone.

Therefore, I would conclude that, for teas with comparable leaf size, a deep shiboridashi is likely to exhibit either a very slow pour, or lots of leaves flowing out. So maybe not ideal for sencha.

If I go ahead with one Kobiwako teapot for sencha, I would choose a hohin as both of you suggest. I would try it gongfu-style too, and if the skirt handles the heat well and I prefer the taste compared to the neutral vessels I currently use, the shiboridashi, with its skirt similar to that of the small hohins, would be an interesting choice as a second teapot at home, or for use at work, where I typically only drink teas with bigger leaves and higher infusion temperatures.

Then again, I might purchase both, and rationalize that on the basis that it saves on shipping costs... :D
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