Deep shiboridashi as general-use teapot?

[Baisao]

I think your test with sencha is a good one. Note that a shiboridashi is used for gyokuro, which is the same leaf shape as sencha, so its pour will be controlled by the user to limit leaf in the cup.

Normally, shiboridashi are flat-ish so the leaf will stick to the bottom rather than exit the spout. Calling that pot a shiboridashi is misleading in my opinion as really it is a filterless hohin.

Filters help with pine needle shaped leaves like sencha and gyokuro and were built into teapots during the late 1800s, prior to adoption by some Yixing potters.

Yixing didn’t need the filters because the leaves were big, Japan needed the filters because the leaves were thinner.

[faj]

Note that a shiboridashi is used for gyokuro, which is the same leaf shape as sencha, so its pour will be controlled by the user to limit leaf in the cup. Normally, shiboridashi are flat-ish so the leaf will stick to the bottom rather than exit the spout.

This makes sense. Ususally shiboridashis are shallow, but have a large diameter and exposed water surface area, so probably do not need to be angled as much for a given pour speed. This probably means slower fluid velocity during pour and less water agitation, so less of a tendency for the leaves to be sucked out. It is likely, too, that the large diameter allows better flow even with clumps of leaves in the way acting like a secondary filter when trying to get every little drop out.

I do not know why shiboridashis do not seem to be used for sencha, maybe a simple matter of usable volume or heat retention.

Calling that pot a shiboridashi is misleading in my opinion as really it is a filterless hohin.

"Filterless hohin" conveys the right meaning, I agree. It depends if one's definition of "shiboridashi" is based on flat shape or absence of filter. I used "shiboridashi" (adding "deep") as this is what Hojo calls it. I have seen pictures of teapots that had a "shoboridashi" shape but had a filter (from Murata if I remember correctly). They were called "hohin" I think, but "shiboridashi with filter" would have worked too.

[faj]

By the way, I would really like to try new vendors for sencha and gyokuro. I am due for ordering some very soon.

I have seen recommendations for Thés du Japon, O-Cha, Kettl, Maiko. I have seen Hojo recommended, but overall (not specifically for Japanese green teas, but not excluding them either).

A cursory look at their websites leads me to conclude their price range is no higher than what I typically pay from my usual store, and in some cases maybe lower, which was a bit of a surprise to me, as they were recommended as top-quality sources, which I expected to be more expensive. Obviously, I cannot compare the price/quality ratio of these shops to the one I usually buy from : maybe I am getting very good tea from a store people around here do not know about, more likely I am paying too much for the quality I am getting. In any case, I amt interested in finding out.

If I were to try one vendor and sample several teas to get a picture of what to reasonably expect from quality Japanese green teas, is there one you would recommend?

[Jo]

faj, our go to vendor for green tea is O-Cha, excellent selection at competitive prices. Plus he offers teas from Tsuen, oldest in Japan.

I'll ask Chip to post tea recommendations for you ... I love his Sae Midori and Yutaka Midori ... great tasting sencha for the price.

[Baisao]

I like O-cha for superior blended teas and Thés du Japon for tasting amazing single estate varietals.

80% of sencha produced is from the Yabukita varietal. Being able to taste unusual varietals was an epiphany for me! Normally sencha is a three act play: umami, something “green” in flavor, and finally some kind of citrus. This gets BORING after a while. I’ve met a lot of experienced enthusiasts who got bored with Japanese teas because of this three act play.

I have been enjoying a really nice sencha from Tsuen (via O-cha) this weekend. It’s impeccably blended and even has a bit of muskiness in the umami, something I have only experienced once with a Yabukita. It is a sophisticated, modern tea.

Contrast this with the Shizu-7132 from Thés du Japon that I have been drinking. It has a pronounced note of crushed cherry leaf, something I’ve never experienced in a Japanese tea but is very much a characteristic of the varietal. The umami is not as punchy since it’s organic, and it has a good bit of sweetness to it. It’s a great sencha with very unique characteristics.

To use a slightly off-color analogy, it’s like comparing Kate Moss to Sophia Loren. One is sophisticated but doesn’t have a lot to hold on to, the other is provincial but... well, you get it.

[faj]

I like O-cha for superior blended teas and Thés du Japon for tasting amazing single estate varietals.

Thanks for the feedback @Baisao.

The catalog of these two vendors is rather daunting, which is not surprising considering they specialize in Japanese teas. I would need to narrow down choices a bit, and avoid the risk of trying a few teas at random, not liking them too much, and jumping to mistaken conclusion about the whole selection.

Do you typically observe a direct relationship between quality and price within a single vendor's offering? Or is it a matter of taste where price is related to scarcity, name, or a concept of "grades" that does not correlate with the quest for the best drinking experience?

Regards,

[Baisao]

I am less experienced with O-cha and have relied on @Chip’s suggestions. I don’t find their site very detailed in what to expect for a given tea but the ones Chip has suggested have been great.

Another thing about Thés du Japon that I like is that Florent, the owner, does a superb job describing his teas and how to prepare them. It’s all to familiar that a seller describes a characteristic of a tea and it’s simply not there. This is not the case with Thés du Japon. If Florent says a tea has notes of white grape, it’s there. My advice is to find teas that have notes that appeal to you and buy those. I have bought literally pounds of sencha, bancha, oolong, matcha from them and have never been disappointed.

Specific to these two vendors: I do think that you pay for what you get. I’ve seen some hard to get but lower quality teas sell for less, which is generally unusual in the tea market. On the other hand, I have had superlative teas from both that were rather expensive but well worth it to me.

[faj]

Specific to these two vendors: I do think that you pay for what you get. I’ve seen some hard to get but lower quality teas sell for less, which is generally unusual in the tea market. On the other hand, I have had superlative teas from both that were rather expensive but well worth it to me.

This is actually useful. Knowing that, I can sample teas that are in the same price range as what I usually buy, which should help be get a feel for the price/quality ratio compared to what I know.

Price can never mean everything and tastes are personal, but if there is no meaningful link between price and quality, then you have to try everything, and maybe save money in the end by finding inexpensive gems, but at the expense of wasted time, which is an expensive commodity.

[nasalfrog]

+1 for O-Cha. I've happily revisited several teas from there, even with my obsession to try new Japanese teas & vendors.

[Chip]

O-Cha go tos ...
Sae Midori
Yutaka Midori
Aoi

Going to try the San No Ma. It is in the Teafridge.
The Chadoraku is very good but currently out of stock.

I hope he offers the Satsuma Sae Midori again. Might have been the sencha of the year ... simply perfect!

Surprise value of the year (around 16 USD per 100 grams) is Asanoka asamushi. You see, sometimes you get MORE than you pay for!
Incredible aromas both dry in the bag and after the first steep in the kyusu. Amazing umami and deeeeep mouth feel. Has an unusual "nasally" thing about it, if you try it you will know what I mean. 3 very good steeps but I usually go 6 which are all very enjoyable in their own ways.

It is also a great blender with Sae Midori or Yutaka Midori.

Want to try a truly oustanding Gyokuro, the Yume (not Yame) no Ukihashi might blow your freakin mind. I think it is also an incredible value at around 50 USD per 100 grams. It is a Tsuen selection.

Fijitsubo is more affordable but very good.

[faj]

O-Cha go tos ...
Sae Midori
Yutaka Midori
Aoi

Thanks a lot for your input @Chip!

I assume the Sae Midori and Yutaka Midori you refer to are those called exactly that, not those with "organic" or other variants with slightly different descriptions. I assume by "go-tos" you mean teas you consistently enjoy and would not mind drinking every day, not "basic but OK" options.

Up until now, I have purchased no Japanese green teas I would consider "go-tos" at prices that low. It might reflect my own limited capacity to infuse the teas properly or enjoy them for what they are worth, or the fact that my current source has a less favorable price/quality ratio (very much a possibility).

One thing is for sure, I am interested in getting reference points by comparing my subjective experience with that of knowledgeable drinkers for teas they consider good.

Want to try a truly oustanding Gyokuro, the Yume (not Yame) no Ukihashi might blow your freakin mind. I think it is also an incredible value at around 50 USD per 100 grams. It is a Tsuen selection.

I am OK with my freaking mind being blown, so this goes in the wish list along with the rest for now. Once again, this below the price of the gyokuros I have really liked up until now, so if it turns out to be as good or better than those, that will be real progress for me.

[Baisao]

Up until now, I have purchased no Japanese green teas I would consider "go-tos" at prices that low. It might reflect my own limited capacity to infuse the teas properly or enjoy them for what they are worth, or the fact that my current source has a less favorable price/quality ratio (very much a possibility).

One thing about Japanese teas in the pine needle shape is that they are difficult to judge weight by sight. Are you using a gram scale?

Others will have their own parameters for sencha and I adjust mine, but I typically start with 4g/70-100ml at 165° for 1:20, 0:15, 1:00, 1:30.

To be honest though, I typically do not measure the temp but I know it’s around 150-165° based on past experience.

It’s a tricky tea to get right.

[faj]

Are you using a gram scale?

Always.

Others will have their own parameters for sencha and I adjust mine, but I typically start with 4g/70-100ml at 165° for 1:20, 0:15, 1:00, 1:30.

You use more leaf than I do. Recently I have experimented with 2g/100ml or 3g/100ml, but before that I used closer to 1g/100ml. I am not sure that is the problem though, as I have not found using more leaves has turned turned "meh" teas into good ones. I have felt the water/leaf ratio was more about finding the proper dosage for a tea I like to start with rather than salvaging one I find lacking.

I tend to like teas with plenty of aroma and after-taste. With senchas that are light on aromas, I find increasing the amount of leaves tends to make the lack of aromas more noticeable, as if the extra leaves add more to the perceived umami / broth-like aspect of the tea than to the aromas. I do not dislike the umami, but if there is nothing else to balance it, it makes the tea a bit one-dimensional to my taste.

To be honest though, I typically do not measure the temp but I know it’s around 150-165° based on past experience.

I use a variable temperature kettle, typically 160°F-170°F, preheating everything. I often ramp up the temperature a bit between infusions to compensate for the absence of preheating and thermal inertia of the wet, cooled leaves, but this is not something I have really tested.

I have not experimented enough with infusion duration. I use a timer, but I do not have a specific recipe I systematically follow. The main difference from your parameters is probably the second infusion I would usually have at a duration similar to the first one. That is one thing I might be doing really wrong, but the senchas I fail to appreciate start disappointing right at the first infusion.

[Baisao]

I used to use less leaf with more water and a much longer initial steeping time. The tea was good but light and one dimensional, just as you said.

I make it stronger now using parameters I’ve adopted from Florent. It makes a more robust tea.

The one dimensional aspect could also be related to excessive blending. As I said earlier, I know a lot of people who got bored with Japanese teas because they were boring three act plays.

[debunix]

Back to the discussion of hohin and shiboridashi vs other styles of brewing vessels:

One should not underestimate the value of ease of cleaning of simpler brew vessel shape when in less-than-optimal physical setups--e.g., for travel or an office where all you have is a bathroom sink to clean in out. Being able to rinse quickly and wipe clean without needing to flush a lot of water through nooks and crannies (poorly accessible filter holes, narrow inverted rim areas) can be a fine bonus with a gaiwan, shibo, and some (but not all) hohins.