Japanese Clays and Techniques

[Yoroko]

@faj Yes, that seems to be one of his Kyusus - the style is typical. And also yes: Akira's photos are too red; they are actually more orange.
Do you taste a difference to other pots? BTW: I found now the pics with "correct" orange Hon Shudei Kyusus and just for the color a section.

@Baisao In case you missed it, I wrote: in my opinion. This is not a universal final truth. Just my opinion. One of the reasons for this is the addition of iron powder and the resulting coating that is often produced during the firing process: the Kyusus are given a kind of coating, similar to a glaze. That's why I just gave away my reduction fired Kyusu from Tokoname. Unfortunately, the clay cannot influence anything positively (or negatively). More information on this from Akira Hojo: https://hojotea.com.my/posts-16/ --> please go down to the subtitle: Iron oxide is added to achieve the red color

@Bok You are certainly right that the teapot does not have a huge impact. The choice of a good tea is more important and good water, rather low in lime (as I prefer), is just as important. In addition, of course the type of preparation is also important, but then a good kyusu comes into play and then optimizes it further - I would roughly estimate that there is an additional 10-15% improvement, depending on the clay used and the firing method; but that's something. Try it yourself: fill boiling water into a glass pot, a porcelain Kyusu, a glazed one, a tea pot made of mixed and artificially enriched clay and then a high-quality Kyusu made of natural clay (oxidation fired and/or reduction fired and/or carbon reduction fired - ideally made of the same clay). Let it stand for an hour and taste the water of each one in a glass cup (should be the most neutral material). It should taste different from each pot. It has always been the case with blind tastings, a friend used to make before COVID: about 60-70% (depending how many tea drinkers are invited - no just joking) tasted the difference, the rest smiled mildly, very mildly

[faj]

faj Yes, that seems to be one of his Kyusus - the style is typical.

Also, advertised as a pot from him from the vendor...

Do you taste a difference to other pots? BTW: I found now the pics with "correct" orange Hon Shudei Kyusus and just for the color a section.

The pot is too new for me to form an opinion, and since getting it I have not had a good tea to test it with. That being said, it does not seem muting or overly rounding out of the gate, and the first sessions with it produced good results.

[Yoroko]

Also, advertised as a pot from him from the vendor...

Well then everything is fine

The pot is too new for me to form an opinion, and since getting it I have not had a good tea to test it with. That being said, it does not seem muting or overly rounding out of the gate, and the first sessions with it produced good results.

Hopefully you will soon get your hands on some good tea - and then you can compare the one in the Gisui kyusu with other kyusus. I'd be very interested in that. However, the results so far sound promising. Congratulation!
What did the dealer actually say about the shudei used?

[faj]

Hopefully you will soon get your hands on some good tea - and then you can compare the one in the Gisui kyusu with other kyusus. I'd be very interested in that.

To be clear, I do have good tea, just not good tea for tests. I am going through a bag of sencha that is OK but not really to my liking, so the relevance of tests is not ideal. Frankly, I do not care much what teapots do to tea I would not want to drink regularly.

What counts for me is what a teapot does to a tea I can see myself drinking everyday (or, at least, as money allows...). Otherwise, I would feel like an audiophile that tries various amps and speakers to improve the sound, but tests with music he does not like listening to. At the end of the day, I drink tea, not teapots .

I am also going through a bag of really excellent, strong gyokuro, and in that case great results are almost too easy to obtain.

What did the dealer actually say about the shudei used?

No claim made.

[Yoroko]

To be clear, I do have good tea, just not good tea for tests. I am going through a bag of sencha that is OK but not really to my liking, so the relevance of tests is not ideal. Frankly, I do not care much what teapots do to tea I would not want to drink regularly.

What counts for me is what a teapot does to a tea I can see myself drinking everyday (or, at least, as money allows...). Otherwise, I would feel like an audiophile that tries various amps and speakers to improve the sound, but tests with music he does not like listening to. At the end of the day, I drink tea, not teapots .

I am also going through a bag of really excellent, strong gyokuro, and in that case great results are almost too easy to obtain.

Oops - I got you wrong - well, German is my mother tongue . A special tea for the test, of course. I do that too. For me, the pots have only recently gained in importance after I have been able to test again and again with others what the different Kyusus do with one and the same tea with the same infusion parameters. Not too much, but you can taste it clearly in my opinion. Especially with the qualities that are not right at the top. In my opinion, an excellent Sencha or Kabusecha is more forgiving than a very good one, and so these achieve the most improvement. On the other hand, I often prefer to pour a gyokuro in a glazed kyusu. Sometimes just as the mood takes you and when the time comes. And of course it should be fun to listen to the music you like, or the tea you like to drink. Have a nice day

[olivierd]

I second a neutral ustensil for Gyokuro. The critical factor for that tea is the temperature. Even a shiboradashi would make the brew harder. A very thin wall Kyusu fired in reduction is a fine one. I tend to believe, right or wrong, that you don't want to change the tea taste when it's down to Japanese green teas. The tetsubin does the job of mellowing the water which is enough to get full body and aromas. One funny thing about Gyokuro is that it is supposed to be drunk fresh, I have 2004 Gyokuro that imo surpasses any current one. Equally matcha is supposed to be drunk fresh, but 3-4 days of oxydation does a good job of mellowing the possible bitterness and turning it more creamy and umami regardless of low or ceremony grade, usucha or koicha grade.

[Baisao]

Baisao In case you missed it, I wrote: in my opinion. This is not a universal final truth. Just my opinion.

I didn't miss it. I question your opinion. You may question mine, of course. I don't mean to offend or be prickly. Our opinions simply seem to be at odds.

One of the reasons for this is the addition of iron powder and the resulting coating that is often produced during the firing process: the Kyusus are given a kind of coating, similar to a glaze. That's why I just gave away my reduction fired Kyusu from Tokoname. Unfortunately, the clay cannot influence anything positively (or negatively). More information on this from Akira Hojo: https://hojotea.com.my/posts-16/ --> please go down to the subtitle: Iron oxide is added to achieve the red color

I do not have any modern shudei pots that differ in any meaningful way from hon shudei pots. There are no coatings on them from the addition of iron. I suppose it is possible with poorly compounded clays but I have not experienced it. On the contrary, the hon shudei used by Jozan Yamada I is as good as the modern shudei sometimes used by Jozan Yamada III. And contrary to what you described, the modern shudei that is currently being used by the Yamada family is rather porous and is definitely not coated like a glaze.

It makes me wonder if you picked up this idea from Hojo or from personal experience. If the former, you should bear in mind that however well-meaning and enthusiastic he is, he makes wild claims that cannot be substantiated: ultimately, he is a salesman. If the latter, you may have possessed a poor sample.

Neophytes are now searching for hon shudei like people did vintage zhuni a couple decades ago. In the case of shudei, there is nothing especially magical about hon shudei over modern shudei.

...but then a good kyusu comes into play and then optimizes it further - I would roughly estimate that there is an additional 10-15% improvement, depending on the clay used and the firing method; but that's something. Try it yourself: fill boiling water into a glass pot, a porcelain Kyusu, a glazed one, a tea pot made of mixed and artificially enriched clay and then a high-quality Kyusu made of natural clay (oxidation fired and/or reduction fired and/or carbon reduction fired - ideally made of the same clay). Let it stand for an hour and taste the water of each one in a glass cup (should be the most neutral material). It should taste different from each pot.

Emphasis added.

Yes, there is a huge difference between the performance of reduction and oxidation fired teapots when compared to inert materials like porcelain or glass. There's even a remarkable difference between the performance of reduction and oxidation fired teapots, even of the same clay. I switch among them as fits my whim. And I guess that makes me like one of @faj's audiophiles. Sometimes I am in the mood for the piquant texture of shudei, other times for the velvety smoothness of mayake or vintage mumyoi, still other times for the uncolored properties one gets from porcelain or glazed pots. I don't feel that any one is better than the other but that I may be in the mood for one characteristic any given day, just as I may be in the mood for a specific tea or genre of music.

It has always been the case with blind tastings, a friend used to make before COVID: about 60-70% (depending how many tea drinkers are invited - no just joking) tasted the difference, the rest smiled mildly, very mildly

That's very funny! I think we all know and love characters from both groups.

[faj]

And I guess that makes me like one of faj's audiophiles. Sometimes I am in the mood for the piquant texture of shudei, other times for the velvety smoothness of mayake or vintage mumyoi, still other times for the uncolored properties one gets from porcelain or glazed pots.

Quickly stepping in to defend my analogy...

Of course, it makes sense to vary the vessel used to suit changing tastes or mood, if not just for fun or variety. I will go ahead and assume, however, that you are doing that as part of the experience or as a complement, not as a pursuit in itself where the tea itself and is irrelevant.

Or would it be possible for you to say "that was not pleasant tea, but the teapot tasting was great", in the same way an audiophile could enjoy bad music as long as the sound quality is good?

While defending my analogy, I will also recognize its limits, though : teapots are not to tea exactly as sound quality is to music. They do have this too in common though : there is a risk of focusing on the "hardware" more than the content. There is always some form of temptation to buy the next piece of gear..

[Baisao]

And I guess that makes me like one of faj's audiophiles. Sometimes I am in the mood for the piquant texture of shudei, other times for the velvety smoothness of mayake or vintage mumyoi, still other times for the uncolored properties one gets from porcelain or glazed pots.

Of course, it makes sense to vary the vessel used to suit changing tastes or mood, if not just for fun or variety. I will go ahead and assume, however, that you are doing that as part of the experience or as a complement, not as a pursuit in itself where the tea itself and is irrelevant.

This is more the case— a matter of mood.

Another difference between audiophiles and teapot people is that audiophiles are looking for high fidelity and teapot people are looking to color the characteristics of tea, which would be considered low fidelity. A porcelain vessel will render the tea in its highest fidelity whereas a mumyoi teapot will render the tea with lower fidelity.

[McScooter]

For those of you who own wood-fired wares from Yamada So, Taisuke Shiraiwa, and others, how do you find the clay to generally affect sencha? I have read seemingly conflicting interpretations, ranging from virtually no influence (akin to porcelain), to making the water much sweeter (and I think someone like Toru @ AN may have affirmed this view). Is there variation from pot to pot even if the base clay is the same?

[Baisao]

For those of you who own wood-fired wares from Yamada So, Taisuke Shiraiwa, and others, how do you find the clay to generally affect sencha? I have read seemingly conflicting interpretations, ranging from virtually no influence (akin to porcelain), to making the water much sweeter (and I think someone like Toru @ AN may have affirmed this view). Is there variation from pot to pot even if the base clay is the same?

Sou's mayake contributes a very smooth texture to the tea and Taisuke's woodfired black pots are even more smoothing. Both remind me of vintage mumyoi. It's been a while since I have brewed in one of Taisuke's woodfired red pots so I cannot recall.

Sou and Emu's modern shudei has a piquant, forward texture on the tongue like most shudei (even hon shudei). It is porous and a bit muting, contrary to other shudei I have tried from the family. Some of Emu's earlier modern shudei is not as porous and resembles his father's in the character it lends to tea.

HTH

[Victoria]

For those of you who own wood-fired wares from Yamada So, Taisuke Shiraiwa, and others, how do you find the clay to generally affect sencha? I have read seemingly conflicting interpretations, ranging from virtually no influence (akin to porcelain), to making the water much sweeter (and I think someone like Toru @ AN may have affirmed this view). Is there variation from pot to pot even if the base clay is the same?

Sou's mayake contributes a very smooth texture to the tea and Taisuke's woodfired black pots are even more smoothing. Both remind me of vintage mumyoi. It's been a while since I have brewed in one of Taisuke's woodfired red pots so I cannot recall.

Sou and Emu's modern shudei has a piquant, forward texture on the tongue like most shudei (even hon shudei). It is porous and a bit muting, contrary to other shudei I have tried from the family. Some of Emu's earlier modern shudei is not as porous and resembles his father's in the character it lends to tea.

HTH

My experience in part parallels Baisao’s with the wood fired kyusu I have.
Depending on clay used in a wood fired kiln the experience can be pretty different. The most noticeable stand out one I have is an 80ml wood fired Jozan III that uses shigaraki like clay. I like using it with gyokuro because of its small size, low form, slightly porous clay, light ash exterior glaze, and wood firing. The inside is slightly porous, just perfect with Japanese greens. Second most noticeable stand out is a Yamada Sou wood and reduction fired shigaraki like 80ml kyusu. I use this one with yancha; it is thin, dense and because of size, form, clay and firing pairs perfectly with high roast yancha. Both aromatics and body come out nicely.

A few other reduction/wood fired Yamada Sou and Taisuke Shiraiwa kyusu I have I’m still trying to figure out. After firing these are not black, more dark brown inside and outside, and ever so slightly porous. They are all over 120ml so are fine with sencha, and lightly roasted oolongs as well. Can’t really say if there is any effect on water or tea, I’m still wondering about that. So far I don’t use them with highly aromatic teas, they seem to be more about body.

The shudei Yamada Sou I have is still slightly muting, this has not been the case with his father or grandfather’s shudei kyusu that I use. The shudei clay used by Sou needs to be broken in it seems.


Jozan III 80ml wood fired ash glaze shigaraki like clay w/ added mineral and rock particles (kaolin, silica, feldspar, mica, &/or quartz mineral chips).

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Yamada Sou 80ml wood and reduction fired shigiraki like clay w/ added mineral and rock particles (kaolin, silica, feldspar, mica, &/or quartz mineral chips), ash glaze.

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Yamada Sou 160ml wood and reduction fired clay (unknown) w/ added mineral and rock particles (kaolin, silica, feldspar, mica, &/or quartz mineral chips), ash glaze

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Yamada Sou 180ml wood and reduction fired shudei clay with ash and Ao (blue) glaze

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Taisuke Shiraiwa 240ml wood and reduction fired clay (unknown) with ash glaze

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Group of wood and reduction fired kyusu with ash glaze. Clockwise from upper left; Tilted Kyusu unknown maker 160ml , Taisuke Shiraiwa 240ml, lower right Yamada Sou 160ml, lower left Yamada Sou 80ml.

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[Baisao]

@Victoria - Those are wonderful examples. You can see their teacher's influence in each.

[McScooter]

Wow, that is such a wonderful representation of not only wood-fired works, but of these particular artists as well. That they are uniquely identifiable probably means I've spent way too much time looking at kyusus lately. The texture on the inside of that Jozan III is also something else - reminds me of an oatmeal cookie, or some kind of exfoliant you'd get at like, a LUSH type store in the mall. Amazing piece!

Interesting note on the "piquant, forward texture", Baisao. I've noticed this with certain clays, and have wondered if that's actually the result of certain minerals in the clay stimulating the sweetness receptors on the tongue (which are generally more concentrated up front). I sometimes perceive this as a tingling sensation, and in general probably perceive it as sweetness, though it's quite different than the mouth coating sweetness and huigan that one gets with certain teas.

I suppose the conclusion I've reached after reading through these responses is not unfamiliar: I need to acquire more pots.

[Yoroko]

I didn't miss it. I question your opinion. You may question mine, of course. I don't mean to offend or be prickly. Our opinions simply seem to be at odds.

Oh that's fine with me: I like good and constructive discussions and in the end we don't have always to agree.

I do not have any modern shudei pots that differ in any meaningful way from hon shudei pots. There are no coatings on them from the addition of iron. I suppose it is possible with poorly compounded clays but I have not experienced it. On the contrary, the hon shudei used by Jozan Yamada I is as good as the modern shudei sometimes used by Jozan Yamada III. And contrary to what you described, the modern shudei that is currently being used by the Yamada family is rather porous and is definitely not coated like a glaze.

It makes me wonder if you picked up this idea from Hojo or from personal experience. If the former, you should bear in mind that however well-meaning and enthusiastic he is, he makes wild claims that cannot be substantiated: ultimately, he is a salesman. If the latter, you may have possessed a poor sample.

Neophytes are now searching for hon shudei like people did vintage zhuni a couple decades ago. In the case of shudei, there is nothing especially magical about hon shudei over modern shudei.

Unfortunately, I did have a kyusu (reduction) that had a glazed coating and gave it away last weekend. A yuzamashi (also reduction) also has a rather silky surface (inside and outside) and this also indicates too much iron powder or too hot a fire with iron powder - as far as I have been able to find out so far. My experience with clay goes back decades. In my youth I discovered coffee and I experimented with its preparation for a long time. Then ended up with a porcelain teapot, including a sieve and water distributor (and lid) made of the same material: a "Karlsbader Kanne" (has been around for 200 years or so). The water in Vienna is great, but I wanted to improve it and experimented with different clay pots in which I left the water to stand, boiled it the next day, filled it in the same pot and used it to brew the coffee. I made the pots myself, supported in school by my handicraft teacher, who was in China a lot, spoke fluent Chinese and even wrote and only ever carved pipes. In the end, after 2 years, I had 8 different types of clay pots for my water (even clay enriched with iron), the last type was made of a very red clay that my handicraft teacher brought with him from China after the summer holidays, and which he had specially bought for me (from a traditional pharmacy as he told me with a smile). It is the same clay that would be used for famous teapots, he was told. The last pot finally brought the desired result: the coffee tasted a lot better. So I didn't need Mr. Hojo for my observations. However, I was then very surprised that Mr. Hojo wrote exactly about the connections with these things, which coincided with my experience, however, with regard to coffee. Unfortunately my "Red Water Clay Vessel" only survived until 1991 and my "Karlsbader Kanne" until 1992 - both went their way from fragile things and fell to the ground. Then I decided to drink "normal" coffee (Espresso machine) and only got myself a Karlsbader coffee maker ​​again in 2006. And now I'm a little picky about the clay over tea - old habit. But maybe I actually had bad luck with my Tokoname acquisitions. A kyusu made by H.S. by the way, it's not that difficult to get.

Emphasis added.
Yes, there is a huge difference between the performance of reduction and oxidation fired teapots when compared to inert materials like porcelain or glass. There's even a remarkable difference between the performance of reduction and oxidation fired teapots, even of the same clay. I switch among them as fits my whim. And I guess that makes me like one of faj's audiophiles. Sometimes I am in the mood for the piquant texture of shudei, other times for the velvety smoothness of mayake or vintage mumyoi, still other times for the uncolored properties one gets from porcelain or glazed pots. I don't feel that any one is better than the other but that I may be in the mood for one characteristic any given day, just as I may be in the mood for a specific tea or genre of music.

Yes, the differences are huge and it is fascinating to see how clay and the other materials (and their processing) have an impact on our tea.

That's very funny! I think we all know and love characters from both groups.

Oh yes